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National Duals is DEAD????

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On what information are you basing your statement? Or are you bored and stirring the pot?

 

 

Euphemistically speaking, someone finally just shot it and put it out of its misery. Long overdue. 

Edited by TBar1977

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TBar,

 

 

I am sorry, but responses like yours make me cringe.  The format for the National Duals needs tweaking, but to happily say, "National Duals is Dead!" is sad.  Duals NEED to be important.  The current NCAA DI format makes ONE event mean everything.  Basically nothing else(for team purposes) matters.  Hell, OkState just showed you don't even need a qualifying tournament.  Just make sure your guys get 20 matches in against DI opponents and have a solid record.

 

  If your team is 5-12 in Dual meets, so what.  They can still be ranked Top 5.  Try explaining that to a casual fan!  Team records need to matter.  Wrestling your best(healthy) team in a Dual meet needs to matter.  Even if you don't support Duals deciding the Team Championship how can you argue against making Duals matter?  I am not against the current format deciding the Team Champion.  I am against what the current format does to EVERY OTHER part of the season.

 

Quote NCAA DI Tournament attendance all you want as your defense.  How many of them are actual casual fans?  And remember, this is the APEX tournament.  The best of the best.  Still, tournament wrestling is NOT fan friendly.  Look at attendance of every other tournament during the season.

 

Unless someone can come up with a viable idea that everyone else is missing, Duals are the only realistic way to grow the sport.  I am not sure any one way is the best way, but somehow we have to all get on board and FIND a format that works!

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 I am not against the current format deciding the Team Champion.  I am against what the current format does to EVERY OTHER part of the season.

 

i think that's a good way of putting it.

 

the national duals could never be what they wanted it to be because it meant exactly the same as any other competition during the regular season. which is nothing from a team perspective. just another opportunity for individuals to earn qualifying spots for their conference tournament. 

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MSU, I am not going to get into another long drawn out lengthy debate over this issue. The OP used the term "dead" and I made a play on words around his word. The problem with National Duals isn't the event itself. The event went off and was fine the way it was for many years.

 

The problem is that a group of people tried to make it something bigger than it was. In the process they got totally carried away with it and even went so far as to try and make it so big that it would change the NCAA Tournament. The rest of the wrestling world spoke up about their plans and those plans did not hold up under closer inspection. 

 

The best the National Duals is ever going to be is what it has always been. That is to say, a great event unto itself, but not a part of determining the NCAA Champion. The battle is over. The Nat Duals proponents can keep picking at the scab but it isn't going to change anything except to create even more scar tissue. Frankly, they should leave well enough alone at this point. 

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TBar,

 

Really?  The rest of the wrestling world?  You make is sound like they were an overwhelming percentage.  That is far from the case.  It was simply, 3 of the heaviest hitters(PSU, Iowa and OkState) having issues that have beat it up.  And the reason for that is simple.  They don't need any change.  They have a strong fan base and the current format is in their best interest.

 

 

Again, please don't act like it was on overwhelming majority against the National Duals........

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Duals NEED to be important.  

 

  If your team is 5-12 in Dual meets, so what.  They can still be ranked Top 5.  Try explaining that to a casual fan!  Team records need to matter.  Wrestling your best(healthy) team in a Dual meet needs to matter.  Even if you don't support Duals deciding the Team Championship how can you argue against making Duals matter?  I am not against the current format deciding the Team Champion.  I am against what the current format does to EVERY OTHER part of the season.

 

Quote NCAA DI Tournament attendance all you want as your defense.  How many of them are actual casual fans?  And remember, this is the APEX tournament.  The best of the best.  Still, tournament wrestling is NOT fan friendly.  Look at attendance of every other tournament during the season.

 

Unless someone can come up with a viable idea that everyone else is missing, Duals are the only realistic way to grow the sport.  I am not sure any one way is the best way, but somehow we have to all get on board and FIND a format that works!

 

 

 

MSU, c'mon.

 

1. Attendance at the NCAA Tournament DWARFS attendance at National Duals and we all know this. 

 

2. Duals DO matter. They matter at Penn State. Fans show up and pack the place. You need to convince those coaches who want National Duals to take precedence to draw more fans to their own duals first, then maybe they'd actually have a point.

 

3. I am against any system that would allow refs to be cowed into the type of officiating we saw JUST THIS YEAR at National Duals where the stalling calls were totally lopsided in favor of one team DESPITE THAT TEAM BEING OUTWRESTLED IN EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY. This is what you are going to get if we ever see Nat Duals take over. Team champions decided by a dual meet that is officiated in a totally one sided fashion. 

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TBar,

 

Really?  The rest of the wrestling world?  You make is sound like they were an overwhelming percentage.  That is far from the case.  It was simply, 3 of the heaviest hitters(PSU, Iowa and OkState) having issues that have beat it up.  And the reason for that is simple.  They don't need any change.  They have a strong fan base and the current format is in their best interest.

 

 

Again, please don't act like it was on overwhelming majority against the National Duals........

 

 

 

There was enough. That is all that matters. 

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TBar,

 

National Duals attendance is a weak, and misguided argument.  The point of the National Duals is to bolster the ENTIRE dual meet season and raise attendance at EVERY dual.  Obviously, it needed full support from within(which it obviously didn't get) to get the necessary support from every were else.  It needed time to be tweaked and allow it to grow.  I never said it was a perfect system, but it was never given a fair chance to succeed........

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TBar,

 

Really?  The rest of the wrestling world?  You make is sound like they were an overwhelming percentage.  That is far from the case.  It was simply, 3 of the heaviest hitters(PSU, Iowa and OkState) having issues that have beat it up.  And the reason for that is simple.  They don't need any change.  They have a strong fan base and the current format is in their best interest.

 

 

Again, please don't act like it was on overwhelming majority against the National Duals........

At best it's 50/50 in terms of coaches in favor of having this type of NCAA championship. 

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Many duals are poorly attended because they are boring.

 

Two reasons for this; coaching that does not encourage aggressive wrestling (not a problem where coaches do otherwise, e.g. Penn State, Iowa, Minny, Ok St, etc), and refs that do not call stalling, which is most of them (but not all).

 

NCAAs are exciting because the stakes are high, thus even boring matches become very interesting.

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Many duals are poorly attended because they are boring.

 

Two reasons for this; coaching that does not encourage aggressive wrestling (not a problem where coaches do otherwise, e.g. Penn State, Iowa, Minny, Ok St, etc), and refs that do not call stalling, which is most of them (but not all).

 

NCAAs are exciting because the stakes are high, thus even boring matches become very interesting.

 

 

 

Something that happened even at Nat Duals. One might even get the impression coaches were trying to limit how much a wrestler would lose by to a more talented wrestler in order to preserve a dual win, thus leading to said wrestler to not be aggressive.

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Folkstyle wrestling is maximized physically. Wrestlers are often injured and leave the sport with a lifetime of physical problems. You can't ask for more action when it is not possible and to tack on a string of stalling calls will make these matches look like an unfunny comedy.

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We keep hearing how national duals can increase interest in the regular season, yet the current system has done nothing for attendance and there is no evidence that a new, improved version would do any better. Fact of the matter is I have yet to hear one person articulate how this new national duals would increase attendance other then the vague "it will make regular season duals matter". Oh really, how exactly? The vast majority of fan bases will care less because their team will either have no hope of even getting invited or will be first round fodder for a power program. Furthermore, many of the better teams that will be participating either have solid attendance figures already or are teams that have a history of success but are incapable of increasing attendance because they simply don't have the local interest. Cornell and Oklahoma State are prime examples of this. 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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Yeah, because whatever doesn't suit your argument needs to be destroyed. Saul Alinsky principles at its finest. 

its a useless non sequitur. National Duals = VA Duals = Scuffle = Midlands. regular season tournaments with no team championship implications. they all draw about the same.

 

don't get so excited, were talking about a college wrestling tournament, not life or death. 

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We keep hearing how national duals can increase interest in the regular season, yet the current system has done nothing for attendance

correct, the current system isn't the best system. i would like to see it changed. 

 

 Fact of the matter is I have yet to hear one person articulate how this new national duals would increase attendance other then the vague "it will make regular season duals matter". Oh really, how exactly? 

because people care about who wins the national championship. so they'll care about dual meets that will earn the team points towards that national championship. is that still too vague? 

Edited by Jaroslav Hasek

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The proponents of Nat Duals want us all to believe that if teams were rigorously competing for a spot at their allegedly prestigious event, this would draw all kinds of new fans to the sport. However, history tells us that even when teams are in the Nat Duals they still don't draw fans. Witness Minnesota in 2013 and Ohio State in 2014, both of whom are coached by two of the prime proponents of Nat Duals. Coaches who one would expect to pull out all the stops to make the event hosted in their own venue a great success from which to build support for their case.

 

The trial balloon was floated. The air came out of it. It's over. Let us now figure out how those same coaches can draw some new fans to their own duals. I would start by suggesting wrestling aggressively, win or lose. 

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