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National Duals is DEAD????

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So in other words, just rename the failed event and all will be fine. I know you are not trying to be a troll, but your responses are 100% troll like.

oh goodness. we are really losing it here. 

 

no, not in those other words. in these words: a new dual tournament that is part of the team championship race, something that never occurred in the former National Duals. 

 

if you can't figure out that difference then ok, we are not going to get anywhere and i guess i am just trying to troll you. fun day on the boards for everyone. 

Edited by Jaroslav Hasek

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I am just imaging the inverse. If we had no post season individual tournament (or no post season tournament at all) and there was a debate about creating an individual championship.

 

I can see people making the same claims..

 

Where is the data that people will turn out to watch this individual tournament? The Cliff Keen Classic in Vegas draws no fans, the Midlands and Scuffle are practically national tournaments and they don't sell out! Probably a third of programs have a dual meet that draws as many fans as the finals draw at these all-star packed tournaments so why do you think another individual tournament will be so popular?

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This is definitely a polarized issue.  Is there a clear right and wrong?  I don't think so.  But, it is funny how nearly 100% weighing in think they are right. 

 

Correlating this debate to the current U.S. Political climate is spot on.....

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Pinnum,

 

The big difference is, other than the NCAA DI Tournament, tons of duals crush every other tournament in attendance.  Duals have proven they can draw fans.  Now before anyone quoted Franklin & Marshall Dual attendance, there will always be exceptions as some teams do little to market their program either by choice or by forced conditions. 

 

The National Duals has been an attempt to capitalize on the Markets(Iowa, PSU, OkState, Minnesota, etc.) that have proven they can draw for Dual meets.  However, they need full support and INCENTIVE(National Championship Influence) to stress to fans the importance of the events.  Read Iowa's board.  Many fans keep saying Iowa shouldn't go to it.  Why?  Simple.  It's because the ONLY thing that matters is the NCAA DI Tournament.

 

National Duals has been handicapped from the start.  It was never given the ammunition necessary to prove itself.  It may never get it.  Still, to quote it's past attendance as the reason why it shouldn't be allowed to decide or influence a Team National Champion is disingenuous at best.  Comparing the past National Duals to the proposed National Duals is the rough equivalent to comparing the U.S Open to the NCAA DI Tournament.

Edited by MSU158

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Pinnum,

 

The big difference is, other than the NCAA DI Tournament, tons of duals crush every other tournament in attendance.  Duals have proven they can draw fans.  Now before anyone quoted Franklin & Marshall Dual attendance, there will always be exceptions as some teams do little to market their program either by choice or by forced conditions. 

 

The National Duals has been an attempt to capitalize on the Markets(Iowa, PSU, OkState, Minnesota, etc.) that have proven they can draw for Dual meets.  However, they need full support and INCENTIVE(National Championship Influence) to stress to fans the importance of the events.  Read Iowa's board.  Many fans keep saying Iowa shouldn't go to it.  Why?  Simple.  It's because the ONLY thing that matters is the NCAA DI Tournament.

 

National Duals has been handicapped from the start.  It was never given the ammunition necessary to prove itself.  It may never get it.  Still, to quote it's past attendance as the reason why it shouldn't be allowed to decide or influence a Team National Champion is disingenuous at best.  Comparing the past National Duals to the proposed National Duals is the rough equivalent to comparing the U.S Open to the NCAA DI Tournament.

I agree with you.

 

I actually think not having a NWCA National Dual tournament will make it easier to get buy-in for an NCAA duals.

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I am just imaging the inverse. If we had no post season individual tournament (or no post season tournament at all) and there was a debate about creating an individual championship.

 

I can see people making the same claims..

 

Where is the data that people will turn out to watch this individual tournament? The Cliff Keen Classic in Vegas draws no fans, the Midlands and Scuffle are practically national tournaments and they don't sell out! Probably a third of programs have a dual meet that draws as many fans as the finals draw at these all-star packed tournaments so why do you think another individual tournament will be so popular?

 

I get that this is a rhetorical device, used to make a point about events & attendance, but the comparison is unhelpful b/c it reverses the reality that our sport is, before anything, individual and it's only after that do any teamifying discussions make sense.

 

Wrestling didn't originate as a team.

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I get that this is a rhetorical device, used to make a point about events & attendance, but the comparison is unhelpful b/c it reverses the reality that our sport is, before anything, individual and it's only after that do any teamifying discussions make sense.

 

Wrestling didn't originate as a team.

No one has suggested that there not be individual competitions. The debate has always been about the team title.

 

Some people feel like others are trying to engineer a title away from them, some feel like any change to wrestling's crown jewel is too risky because the event is too fragile, while others feel like the prospect of using a team's whole available roster to compete in a series against other teams with their whole roster available will be an exciting feature to the championship landscape that fans will enjoy.

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I can't believe people are still arguing this...

 

An individual sport having its team champion determined by tallying the results from individual matchups is pretty straight forward and has been proven to draw the interest of more people than any other event in our sport. 

 

Wonder why the Olympics doesn't determine who the best nation is by holding a dual meet tournament?  Olympic wrestling would explode in popularity worldwide... too bad. 

 

There is a reason people didn't show up to the National Duals, and it isn't because there is an individual NCAA tournament stealing its thunder or because evil Cael didn't believe it was right for his team. 

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Stop keeping team score at the individual tournament.   I know this will get boo's but that will make the team tournament great and the individual tournament will still sell out.

Boos would likely come from the NCAA, which, I'm guessing in looking at their entire history,  has never had championships without the umbrella of team scoring (even in boxing).

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Wonder why the Olympics doesn't determine who the best nation is by holding a dual meet tournament?  Olympic wrestling would explode in popularity worldwide... too bad.

The Olympics doesn't determine who is the best nation... The World Cup does.

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I am a fan of 'small' schools. EWL fan and big supporter of the SoCon and Associate Members of the Pac12. I believe 100 percent that an NCAA dual championship (with automatic qualification for conference champs) would be a great thing for wrestling.

 

I enjoy good wrestling and really enjoy watching Penn State wrestle. Personally, I think it is crazy to think that anyone is engineering a title away from them because I am confisdent they can win in duals. I also think they would have likely avenged their dual losses in the years they won titles because they were wrestling so well in the post season.

 

There is nothing more detrimental to the sport, in my opinion, than having a school hype up a team as being a top-20 program just to have them lose a dual. Arizona State was not a top-10 dual team with Jenkins and Robles. They were a team that had two National Championship wrestlers. I don't like the idea of hyping wrestling and drawing fans in (as was the case with Northern Iowa's undefeated season) just to change formats and try to convince fans to follow three days of wrestling in a format that is very hard for people that don't spend a lot of time on a wrestling forum to be able to appreciate.

 

I think the wrestling community doesn't realize how quickly a person can stop following college wrestling and quickly find that they don't know many of the elite college wrestlers. Being able to follow school brands makes it easier and allows people to be introduced to athletes.

 

Even as a huge Tim Flynn fan, I would much rather see Edinboro get beat out in a dual meet at the NCAA National Quarterfinals than to finish third at the NCAA individual tournament. The truth is that the duals would provide more exposure and draw in the campus community a lot more than the individual tournament and they would still be able to have their group of All-Americans and two athletes (likely) in the Individual National Finals on TV.

 

An NCAA Duals wouldn't preclude any of the current individual recognitions athletes have available to them but it would make the barrier to entry a lot lower for the fan of wrestling that isn't able to follow the season and learn the names of each individual athlete.

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The Olympics doesn't determine who is the best nation... The World Cup does.

 

 

Odd... these clearly show Iran winning the 2013 World Championships (NOT World Cup) and Russian winning the 2014 World Championships. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_World_Wrestling_Championships#Team_ranking

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_World_Wrestling_Championships#Team_ranking

 

 

I also remember Russia winning some absurd % of World/Olympic championships in the last 60 years. 

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Boos would likely come from the NCAA, which, I'm guessing in looking at their entire history,  has never had championships without the umbrella of team scoring (even in boxing).

 

Incorrect. Late 20s early 30s maybe half the years did not have official scoring. Okla St (and the rest of the country) did their own scoring and post facto determined National Champions.

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I am a fan of 'small' schools. EWL fan and big supporter of the SoCon and Associate Members of the Pac12. I believe 100 percent that an NCAA dual championship (with automatic qualification for conference champs) would be a great thing for wrestling.

 

I enjoy good wrestling and really enjoy watching Penn State wrestle. Personally, I think it is crazy to think that anyone is engineering a title away from them because I am confisdent they can win in duals. I also think they would have likely avenged their dual losses in the years they won titles because they were wrestling so well in the post season.

 

There is nothing more detrimental to the sport, in my opinion, than having a school hype up a team as being a top-20 program just to have them lose a dual. Arizona State was not a top-10 dual team with Jenkins and Robles. They were a team that had two National Championship wrestlers. I don't like the idea of hyping wrestling and drawing fans in (as was the case with Northern Iowa's undefeated season) just to change formats and try to convince fans to follow three days of wrestling in a format that is very hard for people that don't spend a lot of time on a wrestling forum to be able to appreciate.

 

I think the wrestling community doesn't realize how quickly a person can stop following college wrestling and quickly find that they don't know many of the elite college wrestlers. Being able to follow school brands makes it easier and allows people to be introduced to athletes.

 

Even as a huge Tim Flynn fan, I would much rather see Edinboro get beat out in a dual meet at the NCAA National Quarterfinals than to finish third at the NCAA individual tournament. The truth is that the duals would provide more exposure and draw in the campus community a lot more than the individual tournament and they would still be able to have their group of All-Americans and two athletes (likely) in the Individual National Finals on TV.

 

An NCAA Duals wouldn't preclude any of the current individual recognitions athletes have available to them but it would make the barrier to entry a lot lower for the fan of wrestling that isn't able to follow the season and learn the names of each individual athlete.

 

 

Yes, we know you would rather see that but clearly not enough people cared about a National Dual tournament to make that a reality. Hence why the proposed changes to the NCAA tournament were shot down and why the National Duals couldn't draw enough fans to continue running. 

 

The team component has always been a part of the NCAA championships and simply decreeing that changing how we determine the best team wouldn't have any negative consequences with zero examples of success to draw from is just silly. 

 

I would bet money that if this change were put into place people would be talking about the "unofficial" National Championship from the individual tournament more than the dual tournament winner. 

 

That's what I saw happen in my state when they tried to take away the team scoring component of the individual state tournament in favor of a dual only championship designation.  Only the coaches seemed to be obsessing over the dual tournament, most everyone else was interested in talking about the "unofficial" tournament champs. 

 

I think figuring out who the best team is matters. 

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Worlds = Olympics ?

 

Guess Burroughs is owed a lot of money from the Living a Dream fund...

 

 

Sorry, I thought those two tournaments were run by the same people in the same format for the same reason and just called the Worlds the Olympics once every four years.

 

Must be a different tournament i'm thinking of... Pop & Flo maybe?

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Michigan has had their Team Championship be decided by a Dual Format since 1988.  It has so much support that it is now being moved to Mt. Pleasant to accommodate it's growth.

 

Oh, and by the way,  the Individual Tournament still get's very good support and attendance......

Edited by MSU158

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i've no crystal ball or scrying pool but i'd go ahead and wager a fresh hundy that if the NCAA were to start determining the team championship with some or all points coming from a dual meet tournament 1) interest in the individual tournament would not decrease 2) there would be more interest in the new team championship dual tournament than any other previous regular season tourney, dual or individual.

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Michigan has had their Team Championship be decided by a Dual Format since 1988.  It has so much support that it is now being moved to Mt. Pleasant to accommodate it's growth.

 

Oh, and by the way,  the Individual Tournament still get's very good support and attendance......

 

 

Great, so the National Duals should be thriving. 

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