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Way to beat Dake

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I owe you NOTHING, much less expanding my points further beyond what I have already.

 

These two will likely wrestle again in two weeks. Should Dake prevail AGAIN, I expect nothing short of additional excuses out of the likes of you and the rest of the DT brigade.

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Because you (PA-Fan) addressed it ? WTH does that mean ? Are you the PSU spokesperson or something ?

Get real...you addressing it means zero...your boy got stuck, END.

 

What are you even talking about?

 

When I say "address it" I am speaking about the claims that he himself is making...

 

No I am not the "PSU spokesman".

 

My addressing what means zero?

 

Taylor got stuck, ok. What does that have to do with the current discussion exactly?

 

Congratulations. You may have one of the most nonsensical and off the wall posts I've ever read here. (and I've been in a few whoppers of discussions with Marty)

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I owe you NOTHING, much less expanding my points further beyond what I have already.

 

These two will likely wrestle again in two weeks. Should Dake prevail AGAIN, I expect nothing short of additional excuses out of the likes of you and the rest of the DT brigade.

 

More straw men and baseless claims. One more time, I have not and will not ever make an excuse for a loss.

 

At least have the integrity to stick to what you say and defend it against criticism. If not why even post (aside from stirring things up the way you like to do I suppose)

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You claimed that the freestyle fall by your tanning booth hero has been addressed and shown to be ridiculous in any comparison to a folkstyle match...read back 4 or 5 posts and try to keep up here...lol It has been addressed in your mind, not mine.

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You claimed that the freestyle fall by your tanning booth hero has been addressed and shown to be ridiculous in any comparison to a folkstyle match...read back 4 or 5 posts and try to keep up here...lol It has been addressed in your mind, not mine.

 

Well ill just ignore the rest of whatever it was you were talking about with your first post and go with this....

 

Yes, the freestyle result has been argued to be non-comparitive to a folkstyle match, over many many pages, by many people (including myself) in multiple past threads. This happened before the All-Star meet. I can see you only joined 10 days ago, so I could maybe understand why you wouldn't know that....

 

Though, I made it crystal clear in this thread that all the past freestyle vs. folkstyle arguments (those, like myself, saying freestyle results dont translate into folkstyle because of the scoring/style differences) have been 100% validated by their folkstyle result - which was decided by the thinnest possible margin. This there is no excuse for you to not be aware of, so the fact that the freestyle result hasn't been "addressed in your mind" means nothing. In reality, it has been more than settled.

 

There is no argument to be had anymore when it comes to Taylor v. Dake. The freestyle result means about as much now as which of them would win in a game of pool. They are separated by the smallest of margins in folkstyle, period.

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Having actually been a D1 wrestler, I understand the differences all too well. Getting physically manhandled when trying to "open things up" translates in any style.

 

I have been on this board and the former Mat.Com board for years... mostly laughing to myself at the keyboard whizbangs like yourself and Marty...

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Having actually been a D1 wrestler, I understand the differences all too well. Getting physically manhandled when trying to "open things up" translates in any style.

 

I have been on this board and the former Mat.Com board for years... mostly laughing to myself at the keyboard whizbangs like yourself and Marty...

 

Congratulations on wrestling D-1, although I don't see how that gives you insight into the differences of folkstyle vs. the new freestyle rules.

 

Secondly, please go back and actually read the arguments you are attempting to discredit before attempting to discredit them...it would make things much easier.

 

Without even going into things like scoring differences (exposure, throws, scrambles, pushouts, etc) and approach/strategy differences in freestyle to folkstyle, or even the intricacies of the scoring of the Dake-Taylor match specifically (how the scramble in the first period at the Trials would have been a completely different score in folkstyle due to the rule differences)... I will skip all of that and keep this very simple and use actual concrete evidence:

 

Freestlye Result: K. Dake wins. 5-0, Fall 1:25.

Folkstyle Result: K. Dake wins 2-1, OT (rideout)

 

So, you saying "Getting physically manhandled when trying to "open things up" translates in any style." obviously does not apply here.

 

I will say once again... The freestyle result means about as much now as which of them would win in a game of pool when it comes to determining who will win at the Scuffle, or NCAAs. They are separated by the smallest of margins in folkstyle right now, period.

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People keep saying Dake is a very defensive wrestler WITHOUT pointing out his best defensive attribute. COUNTER WRESTLING. I agree that Taylor's best chance to beat him is to open up and get the first takedown. However, IF he gets it he HAS to shut back down and force Dake to come to him. Opening up on Dake ALL match would be a HUGE mistake. Also, using losses from 2 years ago when Dake was OBVIOUSLY having weight management issues as a blueprint is a mistake. Taylor is good enough to beat Dake, but he has less room for error than Dake does. The Taylor faithful seem to take it as a given that if he tries to takedown Dake he will succeed.

I respect the dedication of the PSU/Taylor fans and, since I really have no dog in the fight, wish you the best of luck. I do, however, STRICTLY advise you not bet your house on the outcome.

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DJW: don't go back and read nothing, review nothing, and explain nothing.

 

It's a total waste of time, as this guy has become the spiritual leader of the Taylor brigade and there is not enough reasoning in the universe (in the face of results) that'll sway his thinking otherwise.

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DJW: don't go back and read nothing, review nothing, and explain nothing.

 

It's a total waste of time, as this guy has become the spiritual leader of the Taylor brigade and there is not enough reasoning in the universe (in the face of results) that'll sway his thinking otherwise.

 

That's odd. Because reason and the results are exactly what backs the current argument im making (as well as when I made it before the results even existed to back it up). Although since you continually just address the straw men you create as opposed to what I am actually saying, I suppose that doesn't matter.

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Guys remember Herbert vs Varner. People love offense and are pulling for Taylor. Herbert(Like Taylor) was the flash and dance offensive guy and Hodge winner. Went to freestyle that year and got pinned by an underated defensive powerful Varner(Like Dake) and beat at Midlands in folk. People still were saying Herbert was better I remember because they did not like Varner's style. Dake will not lose to Taylor. This matchup is so similiar it is like twilight zone.

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Guys remember Herbert vs Varner. People love offense and are pulling for Taylor. Herbert(Like Taylor) was the flash and dance offensive guy and Hodge winner. Went to freestyle that year and got pinned by an underated defensive powerful Varner(Like Dake) and beat at Midlands in folk. People still were saying Herbert was better I remember because they did not like Varner's style. Dake will not lose to Taylor. This matchup is so similiar it is like twilight zone.

 

Where does Pucillo fit into this analogy?

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Guys remember Herbert vs Varner. People love offense and are pulling for Taylor. Herbert(Like Taylor) was the flash and dance offensive guy and Hodge winner. Went to freestyle that year and got pinned by an underated defensive powerful Varner(Like Dake) and beat at Midlands in folk. People still were saying Herbert was better I remember because they did not like Varner's style. Dake will not lose to Taylor. This matchup is so similiar it is like twilight zone.

Of course, this was all after Herbert had beaten Varner in the NCAA finals.

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What I was basically saying there is the offensive guy always gets all the love even if the defensive guy manhandles him and wins 2-1. I don't think Dake/Taylor is as close as people think. By the way Pucillo ran from Varner that entire match. Varner pinned Herbert twice in freestyle and won 3-1 in folk that year. But the year before I know Herbert did beat him. Back to Dake/Taylor, the offensive guy always will get the love from the fans and wrestling leaders. That was just a near perfect analogy with Herbert/Varner. Once Varner passed Herbert during his sophmore year there was noway he was losing to him. Just like Varner started to manhandle Herbert Dake manhandle sTaylor-I know it is Freestyle but cmon guys even if there last match was 2-1 I just dont see Taylor beating Dake. If Taylor opens up then Dake slings him to his back.

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What I was basically saying there is the offensive guy always gets all the love even if the defensive guy manhandles him and wins 2-1. I don't think Dake/Taylor is as close as people think. By the way Pucillo ran from Varner that entire match. Varner pinned Herbert twice in freestyle and won 3-1 in folk that year. But the year before I know Herbert did beat him. Back to Dake/Taylor, the offensive guy always will get the love from the fans and wrestling leaders. That was just a near perfect analogy with Herbert/Varner. Once Varner passed Herbert during his sophmore year there was noway he was losing to him. Just like Varner started to manhandle Herbert Dake manhandle sTaylor-I know it is Freestyle but cmon guys even if there last match was 2-1 I just dont see Taylor beating Dake. If Taylor opens up then Dake slings him to his back.

 

Two things:

First how can you possibly say Dake "manhandles Taylor", when we are talking about folkstyle?

Second, what is your basis for saying they arnt that close? Dake won in rideouts...if they arnt close then who is?

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What I was basically saying there is the offensive guy always gets all the love even if the defensive guy manhandles him and wins 2-1. I don't think Dake/Taylor is as close as people think. By the way Pucillo ran from Varner that entire match. Varner pinned Herbert twice in freestyle and won 3-1 in folk that year. But the year before I know Herbert did beat him. Back to Dake/Taylor, the offensive guy always will get the love from the fans and wrestling leaders. That was just a near perfect analogy with Herbert/Varner. Once Varner passed Herbert during his sophmore year there was noway he was losing to him. Just like Varner started to manhandle Herbert Dake manhandle sTaylor-I know it is Freestyle but cmon guys even if there last match was 2-1 I just dont see Taylor beating Dake. If Taylor opens up then Dake slings him to his back.

 

Two things:

First how can you possibly say Dake "manhandles Taylor", when we are talking about folkstyle?

Second, what is your basis for saying they arnt that close? Dake won in rideouts...if they arnt close then who is?

 

 

In my opinion if Taylor opens up and tries some funk then Dake will throw him to his back like Jenkins and like their freestyle match. If Taylor shuts down and tries to win by getting one takedown then we may see a Taylor upset. Becasue Dake sure is not going to get alot of takedowns. But I hope I am surprised at the scuffle. I am pulling for Taylor.

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Dake got warned for stalling and Taylor was the aggressor for most of the match. No doubt Dake has excellent defense, solid control, and is hard to score on. If Taylor got a point for Dake stalling the dynamics of the match would have opened up the offense, and we would have seen less Dake signature defense. I think Taylor will be pressing for action even if it puts him in harms way. I agree Dake can scramble with the best of them, but if you play his game being defensive you'll lose most of the time. So why not break it open and see what happens in the scramble or push for a stall point that you almost got the first time? As I said earlier the key to a Taylor victory is to wrestle with at least a one point lead. Dake's defense is too good to wrestle him from behind in points, and Dake has NOT had many experiences where he had to open it up and come from behind, particularly against a guy like Taylor.

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I don't think Dake and Taylor are all that close. I think Dake will beat Taylor every single time they wrestle this year. The argument that the 2-1 OT score of the all-star match "proves" the match could go either way fails to acknowledge that Dake wins the majority of his matches against high-caliber opponents by one or two points. That's Dake's style - love it or hate it. He controlled the entire all-star match. He outwrestled Taylor, and Taylor never stood a chance. He will do the same at the Scuffle and at the NCAAs.

 

True, Taylor might have been "feeling him out", and Taylor might be more aggressive next time they wrestle - but it won't be enough. Taylor is arguably the best in the country at offensive wrestling, and he is so technically sound that he has an amazing ability to score on almost anyone. But, Dake's defense is better.

 

Taylor's closest matches have been against high-caliber opponents. The reason - because the best wrestlers are more difficult to get out of position and score on, they make fewer mistakes. Dake's mat sense and ability to maintain great position, even while scrambling, is better than anyone else in the country. Taylor won't be able to get him out of position or capitalize on any mistakes, as he does with everyone else.

 

If Taylor comes at Dake more aggressive, this will not lead to more points on the board for Taylor (see above). Most likely, Dake will scramble and use his defense, and no points will be scored by either of them. Actually, it would present a greater risk that Taylor would get out of position, allowing Dake to score on him. Both Taylor and Dake are phenomenal, and have the ability to score if the other wrestler gets out of position or makes the slightest mistake. Taylor knows this, and won't allow himself to make any mistakes, so that why he won't "open up" on Dake.

 

Dake does what he needs to win. Period. In freestyle, Dake was more aggressive because the current freestyle rules require him to be more aggressive. In folkstyle, the rules are different, and Dake controls his matches, and wins.

 

Dake wins. Period. (IMHO)

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flaBigRedFan, I agree with everything you said. I would add two things.

 

First, Dake's offense is best when his opponents are moving forward or frustrated (and therefore tend to get out of position). He rarely gets out of position when attacking, which is why his offense is so high-percentage, and that positioning advantage only improves when his opponent is trying to push the pace. So not only do I agree that Taylor pushing the pace would result in no more points for Taylor, I actually think it would result in more points for Dake. Last time that Taylor pushed the pace on Dake, he got in on a leg only to get flattened to his back and pinned (sure, it was freestyle, but both wrestlers' moves were also moves that would work and would be tried in folkstyle). While I don't anticipate a repeat of that, I think Dake is easily the best countershot and counteroffense wrestler in the country, and pushing the pace against him only plays to his advantage.

 

Second, I think Taylor is generally in better shape than Dake. Dake has started this year in much better condition than in past years, but I think Taylor still has a conditioning edge. If Taylor pushes the pace intelligently, perhaps trying to draw stall calls against Dake but not necessarily committing to anything but the highest-percentage shots that are easier to recover from, I could see that as a good strategy as well.

 

So while I agree that pushing the pace will favor Dake, not Taylor, I could see how still relatively early in the season, that strategy may work out for Taylor too.

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If I were coaching Taylor I would advise him to wrestle a fast paced match, but NOT to go full throttle or force attacks. That's a guaranteed way to get taken down defensively, and if you go down several points to Dake the match is over. Also, forget about getting stalling calls. That's a flawed strategy, and is basically admitting that you can't score on the guy and need the refs to help you out. What Taylor needs to do is move Dake around and make him expend energy if he wants to control the ties. What Taylor did in the All Star match was basically play patty cake with him and do the low hand fight game. Problem is, Dake is better at wrestling that style than Taylor, and it doesn't get Dake very tired. Also, Taylor doesn't have shots from those wrist ties...that's just not his game. Taylor isn't as good as Cael, but he needs to take a page from the Cael playbook and move Dake's head around, work for angles, and try to get him to constantly move his feet. This will be tiring for Dake. It's going to be nearly impossible to ankle pick Dake in his stance, so Taylor will have to shoot singles probably. Finishing will be very hard, but once again, if he can get to the leg early in the match, even if he doesn't score, Dake will have to expend a lot of energy defending. If I'm Taylor I'm less worried about stalling calls, and more worried about tiring him out so that a 3rd period takedown could win it. In the All Star match there was so little action, neither guy was getting tired until the very end. Basically, if Taylor wrestles Dake's style, he loses. If he opens up full throttle, he loses. But if he wrestles a fast paced, but smart, match that gets Dake moving around a lot, he has a change to win a close match.

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Only one way to beat Dake is- in neutral- finishing your takedown. His legs are his weakness in neutral yet, he compensates with extension of his body and usually scores when wrestlers do not finish which allows him an athletic-flexible escape from any serious trouble.

 

other than that "he owns you"....every other way.

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If I were coaching Taylor I would advise him to wrestle a fast paced match, but NOT to go full throttle or force attacks. That's a guaranteed way to get taken down defensively, and if you go down several points to Dake the match is over.

 

Also, forget about getting stalling calls. That's a flawed strategy, and is basically admitting that you can't score on the guy and need the refs to help you out. What Taylor needs to do is move Dake around and make him expend energy if he wants to control the ties. What Taylor did in the All Star match was basically play patty cake with him and do the low hand fight game. Problem is, Dake is better at wrestling that style than Taylor, and it doesn't get Dake very tired. Also, Taylor doesn't have shots from those wrist ties...that's just not his game. Taylor isn't as good as Cael, but he needs to take a page from the Cael playbook and move Dake's head around, work for angles, and try to get him to constantly move his feet. This will be tiring for Dake.

 

I agree with the first comment but disagree with the second. As I noted in my previous post, i do agree that Taylor should try to exploit his condition to his advantage because I feel he has an edge there.

 

That said, Dake is one of the best guys in the country from tie-ups. Taylor, for all his offensive strengths (and they are manifold), is not. I feel Dake is a meaningfully better wrestler from tie-ups, which was very apparent in their summer matches (yes, it was freestyle, and sure, Taylor could have been having an off day). If Taylor tries to move Dake around from the tie-up, that plays to Dake's strength, not Taylor's. Taylor's strength from the feet is trying lots of moves that combine his quickness and his length.

 

Therefore, I feel Taylor's best bet is to stick to what he does best. One of the advantages of his style is that his TDs generally come off of high percentage shots that are lower risk, i.e. easier to recover from if they miss. If a hammer like Caldwell cannot move Dake from tie-ups, I don't see Taylor being too successful at it.

 

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss pursuing a stall call as a strategy. After all, Taylor came closer to an offensive point from a stall call than he ever has from an offensive move.

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Taylor had the deepest/best shot of the All-Star match and had more riding time then Dake going into o.t. Those of you saying that Dake "dominated" the match either didn't see it or are being obtuse. In fact, calling any win by ride out dominating is flat out idiotic.

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