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AnklePicker

Way to beat Dake

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Interesting seeing that LeValley match again, I had forgotten it ended with a takedown. For the record, that's the last TD Dake has given up when wrestling at his desired weight (gave up 1 last year up a weight). The keys to me were conditioning and Dake's inability to control from top. Maybe LeValley's hands are just freakishly strong. If Taylor was going to reproduce that performance, why didn't he the first time.

 

As far as Taylor, I think Scribe beef is with the tone. Taylor didn't say I have to push the pace and I think I can take him down and win. He said, I have to force them to call stalling. If he really believes the key is opening up and then the points will flow, then why didn't he just say so. That said, the two are incredibly close and it could go either way. Dake was better, but not by the leaps and bounds everyone is making it out to be. I don't put a lot of stock in the freestyle result. Dake got turned by Paulson, does that mean it's likely to happen to him this year?

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Not much discussion on the self slam eh? Oh well another thing I noticed is that Taylor's go to ankle pick attacks are not really there due to Dake's stance and tough hand fighting. Any time Taylor tried to get something going he ends up with his head buried in a football grip.

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I agree with the first comment but disagree with the second....

 

When I say he needs to move Dake around, I don't mean from a heavy tie. I agree that suits Dake's style better. But there are ways to get your opponent moving around that don't involve heavy ties. Motion, fakes, and quick tie ups where you move him a little bit and then let go of the tie. Cael always said that if he was wrestling somebody really strong he wouldn't try to move them with his collar tie, he would use the collar tie as a quick handle and then move his body around his stationary opponent. It was all about motion and angles for Cael. But Taylor is going to have to do something about tie-ups, because if he tries to dance around the entire match Dake will track him down and force a tie-up. Or he'll be content to let him dance around and have another close match. I think Taylor needs to get a takedown to win this match. The All Star match proved that you don't need a takedown to win, because somebody has to win, but without a takedown the outcome is a crapshoot, but somehow Dake seems to pull out those types of wins more often that not.

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I still say that the key to beating Dake is to get the lead and defend/counter his attacks. The trick/problem is getting the lead. Attack to shake things up or get a stall call, whatever it takes but get that lead before the end of the second period against Dake for the "way to beat Dake".

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I don't think Dake and Taylor are all that close. I think Dake will beat Taylor every single time they wrestle this year. The argument that the 2-1 OT score of the all-star match "proves" the match could go either way fails to acknowledge that Dake wins the majority of his matches against high-caliber opponents by one or two points. That's Dake's style - love it or hate it. He controlled the entire all-star match. He outwrestled Taylor, and Taylor never stood a chance. He will do the same at the Scuffle and at the NCAAs.

)

 

You can have you opinions, which you voiced here, and they can be and are as valid as anyone else's. But these statements are not opinion. One is a baseless assertion, and the other is an incorrect statement of fact... and they are both demonstrably false.

 

First, when you say the 2-1 OT (rideout) score does not suggest this match-up is close because it fails to acknowledge Dake always wins by 1-2 pts...nonsense. Just following your own logic here (which is in itself flawed)...a 1-2 pt decision win is FAR from a multiple OT rideout win, it is a much much much closer match. **And like I said, this is following you logic which I think is totally ridiculous. Just because someone wins many close matches due to their style (as Dake does) does not mean that every close match he wrestles is fully in his control and he is in no danger of losing, especially in the case of the multiple OT rideout win over Taylor - that is just silly.

 

Secondly, to say he controlled the entire all star match and Taylor never stood a chance is just an unbelievable biased assessment, there can be no other reason for it. Sure, he wrestled well and did what he needed to do to win, but as FT pointed out - Taylor was the only one even close to scoring a TD, and had more riding time than Dake going into OT, plus the stalling call/ more shot attempts, etc. These stats alone show that this was anything but a one-sided/fully controlled match (especially not by Dake). To say Taylor never stood a chance in that match is just insane.

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http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/238800-World-Team-Trials-2011/video/495581-74-c-Kyle-Dake-NYAC-vs-Kirk-White-BroncoI would use a right hand collar tie. If you collar tie with your left hand he will underhook you with his dominant right hand. Its better to get on his head and tire his lower back and neck out with your right hand. Roll his right wrist, and don't let him right handed collar tie you. This will stop his schuck by, because he needs that to schuck you. Don't let him get to his right handed underhook or his left handed shuck by. If you get on his head he will eventually come out of his stance. He is good in a body lock/under over situation but he can be beaten there if you shoot to your position. If you choose to shoot a HiCrotch, stand up with it immediately and put it in your armpit to finish.

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Listen guys this is all in fun. It is great there is so much hype around this, this year. Was just having fun with the Herbert/Varner comparison because it reminded me so much of their 4 matches, 2 free, 2 folk. VArner pinning Herbert twice in free like Dake pinned Taylor. I know Dake is not Varner and Herbert is not Taylor but the similiarities in their accomplishments are close. And I am not saying Taylor can't win-he can but Dake, like Varner did Herbert, will just manhandle him if he gets out of position. I can not wait for the scuffle!!!!

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I don't think Dake and Taylor are all that close. I think Dake will beat Taylor every single time they wrestle this year. The argument that the 2-1 OT score of the all-star match "proves" the match could go either way fails to acknowledge that Dake wins the majority of his matches against high-caliber opponents by one or two points. That's Dake's style - love it or hate it. He controlled the entire all-star match. He outwrestled Taylor, and Taylor never stood a chance. He will do the same at the Scuffle and at the NCAAs.

)

 

You can have you opinions, which you voiced here, and they can be and are as valid as anyone else's. But these statements are not opinion. One is a baseless assertion, and the other is an incorrect statement of fact... and they are both demonstrably false.

 

First, when you say the 2-1 OT (rideout) score does not suggest this match-up is close because it fails to acknowledge Dake always wins by 1-2 pts...nonsense. Just following your own logic here (which is in itself flawed)...a 1-2 pt decision win is FAR from a multiple OT rideout win, it is a much much much closer match. **And like I said, this is following you logic which I think is totally ridiculous. Just because someone wins many close matches due to their style (as Dake does) does not mean that every close match he wrestles is fully in his control and he is in no danger of losing, especially in the case of the multiple OT rideout win over Taylor - that is just silly.

 

Secondly, to say he controlled the entire all star match and Taylor never stood a chance is just an unbelievable biased assessment, there can be no other reason for it. Sure, he wrestled well and did what he needed to do to win, but as FT pointed out - Taylor was the only one even close to scoring a TD, and had more riding time than Dake going into OT, plus the stalling call/ more shot attempts, etc. These stats alone show that this was anything but a one-sided/fully controlled match (especially not by Dake). To say Taylor never stood a chance in that match is just insane.

 

Okay - so I admit that I may be slightly biased, and I'll even admit that an OT rideout win is different than a 1 or 2 point decision. But my point remains the same: Just because Dake "only" beat Taylor by 1 point does not mean that the match is a toss up, or that they each have an equal chance of winning. Dake has the strong advantage, and I believe he will win every time. Taylor got in deep on Dake once - but was not close to scoring the TD. Dake wrestled and scrambled his way out of it and maintained excellent position throughout.

 

When I said that Dake controlled the entire match, I meant that Dake wrestled "his" match, and forced Taylor to wrestle the same. Taylor never took control of the action or the match. Taylor only shot once. Once. And that ended in a scramble for no points - as is typical for Dake. Taylor never really tried for a TD in overtime - he wrestled Dake's match. Double OT plays into Dake's hands. Nobody can hold Dake down, and Dake can hold anyone down for 30 seconds.

 

When they wrestle again, I believe Taylor will, again, wrestle Dake's match. And the results will be the same.

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I don't think Dake and Taylor are all that close. I think Dake will beat Taylor every single time they wrestle this year. The argument that the 2-1 OT score of the all-star match "proves" the match could go either way fails to acknowledge that Dake wins the majority of his matches against high-caliber opponents by one or two points. That's Dake's style - love it or hate it. He controlled the entire all-star match. He outwrestled Taylor, and Taylor never stood a chance. He will do the same at the Scuffle and at the NCAAs.

)

 

You can have you opinions, which you voiced here, and they can be and are as valid as anyone else's. But these statements are not opinion. One is a baseless assertion, and the other is an incorrect statement of fact... and they are both demonstrably false.

 

First, when you say the 2-1 OT (rideout) score does not suggest this match-up is close because it fails to acknowledge Dake always wins by 1-2 pts...nonsense. Just following your own logic here (which is in itself flawed)...a 1-2 pt decision win is FAR from a multiple OT rideout win, it is a much much much closer match. **And like I said, this is following you logic which I think is totally ridiculous. Just because someone wins many close matches due to their style (as Dake does) does not mean that every close match he wrestles is fully in his control and he is in no danger of losing, especially in the case of the multiple OT rideout win over Taylor - that is just silly.

 

Secondly, to say he controlled the entire all star match and Taylor never stood a chance is just an unbelievable biased assessment, there can be no other reason for it. Sure, he wrestled well and did what he needed to do to win, but as FT pointed out - Taylor was the only one even close to scoring a TD, and had more riding time than Dake going into OT, plus the stalling call/ more shot attempts, etc. These stats alone show that this was anything but a one-sided/fully controlled match (especially not by Dake). To say Taylor never stood a chance in that match is just insane.

 

Okay - so I admit that I may be slightly biased, and I'll even admit that an OT rideout win is different than a 1 or 2 point decision. But my point remains the same: Just because Dake "only" beat Taylor by 1 point does not mean that the match is a toss up, or that they each have an equal chance of winning. Dake has the strong advantage, and I believe he will win every time. Taylor got in deep on Dake once - but was not close to scoring the TD. Dake wrestled and scrambled his way out of it and maintained excellent position throughout.

 

When I said that Dake controlled the entire match, I meant that Dake wrestled "his" match, and forced Taylor to wrestle the same. Taylor never took control of the action or the match. Taylor only shot once. Once. And that ended in a scramble for no points - as is typical for Dake. Taylor never really tried for a TD in overtime - he wrestled Dake's match. Double OT plays into Dake's hands. Nobody can hold Dake down, and Dake can hold anyone down for 30 seconds.

 

When they wrestle again, I believe Taylor will, again, wrestle Dake's match. And the results will be the same.

 

You are twisting what I am saying. I am not implying that "Just because Dake "only" beat Taylor by 1 point that the match is a toss up". I am saying the match was razor thin - literally as close as a match can possibly get. It is not as if I am looking at the score only - I watched the match. For you to say that it is anything but a toss-up in the future based on this match...I would have to question if you actually did watch it. You can believe all you want that Dake will win, like this, every time. But even if he does win like this every single time - the margin of that victory is still razor thin and each match will be a toss-up. If you are only a single point ahead of David Taylor, you are not in a dominating position. He can score at any time, he is that good. For you to try to argue that their next match is anything but a toss-up is just silly and biased, sorry.

 

Now onto the "Dake controlled the match" comments. You can bend the meaning of what you said, and change it to "Dake wrestled his match, etc, etc." that's fine. But when you add to the end of it "He outwrestled Taylor, and Taylor never stood a chance." Then you are betraying you actual meaning behind you words. To say that Dake wrestled "his match" more than Taylor wrestled his, fine that is reasonable. But to say what you actually said, that Dake controlled the entire match, totally outwrestled Taylor, and Taylor never stood a chance? That is absolute crazy talk.

 

One other smaller detail I noticed in your response. You said that Taylor got in deep on Dake once, but wasn't close to scoring. Id go back and watch that again if I were you, I dont know how you can say he wasnt close to scoring there. Dake just did an amazing job scrambling, and using the short time to his advantage there. Also, you said Taylor only "shot once". I dont know what match you were watching, but you may want to go back and count that again as well.

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Would everyone not agree that Taylor has to change his style to beat Dake? There is just noway around it. Taylor cannot be the shootin, funkin machine against Dake-he will get put on his back if that happens plain and simple.

 

Does he have to change his style and approach, yes. Will he get thrown to his back if he amps up the attack, no. When did Dake become this pinning/back point scoring machine? (Please don't bring up the freestyle result, again.)

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When did Dake become this pinning/back point scoring machine? (Please don't bring up the freestyle result, again.)

 

Well, we know what you believe, and that's ok - but the REAL question is, what does DT believe? Does he think the freestyle result matters? Because if you think about it, that's the only opinion that really has any bearing on the future outcome!

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When did Dake become this pinning/back point scoring machine? (Please don't bring up the freestyle result, again.)

 

Well, we know what you believe, and that's ok - but the REAL question is, what does DT believe? Does he think the freestyle result matters? Because if you think about it, that's the only opinion that really has any bearing on the future outcome!

 

I am sure that Taylor is not sweating any past results. Guys at that high a level look forward and adjust, they don't worry about what happened before, it's that simple.

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I still say that the key to beating Dake is to get the lead and defend/counter his attacks. The trick/problem is getting the lead. Attack to shake things up or get a stall call, whatever it takes but get that lead before the end of the second period against Dake for the "way to beat Dake".

 

Skikayaker, not necessarily disagreeing here, this may in fact be the "best" path to beat Dake - but least anyone thinks Kyle can't come back from a deficit, here's the last time I can recall someone trying that approach:

 

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/235898-09-10-Dirty-Flo-Takedown-Of-The-Week/video/214974-Dirty-Dake

 

Pretty boring stuff. ;)

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I don't think PA-Fan even agrees with himself from one minute to the next.

 

Find me a two things I said that are not in agreement with each other, please.

 

You are twisting what I am saying. I am not implying that "Just because Dake "only" beat Taylor by 1 point that the match is a toss up". I am saying the match was razor thin - literally as close as a match can possibly get. It is not as if I am looking at the score only - I watched the match. For you to say that it is anything but a toss-up in the future based on this match...I would have to question if you actually did watch it. You can believe all you want that Dake will win, like this, every time. But even if he does win like this every single time - the margin of that victory is still razor thin and each match will be a toss-up. If you are only a single point ahead of David Taylor, you are not in a dominating position. He can score at any time, he is that good. For you to try to argue that their next match is anything but a toss-up is just silly and biased, sorry.

 

Now, you questioned whether i had actually watched the match. I just watched it again, and I must correct myself on one thing I said earlier. I stated that Taylor only shot once throughout the entire match. That was inaccurate. Taylor never took a shot. His only "shot" at the end of the second period was a counter-shot off of Dake's high crotch. And I still maintain he was not close to scoring.

 

As for the rest of my posting - my basis for those comments come from the All Star match, and I will break it down, period by period as I see it:

 

1st period: Neutral. Dake controlled handfighting. Dake controlled distance between the wrestlers. Dake controlled tie-ups. Dake controlled pace of match. Taylor never took a shot. Yes, Taylor took 2 or 3 half-shots, but he never committed, and I don't count half-shots as a true attempt to take someone down. A half-shot is more of a set-up - an attempt to get the other wrestler out of position and score on the second shot or shuck by. Speaking of shucks, Dake almost shucked Taylor by after one of Taylor's half-shots (but I admit this claim is arguable). Regardless, Taylor never took a shot, and never followed up any of the half-shots with re-shots or any real attempt at scoring.

 

2nd period: Dake on Bottom. Taylor could not break Dake down. Taylor could not keep Dake on the mat. Dake escaped in just under a minute. Admittedly, Dake did not escape easily from Taylor - I never claimed he did. But Taylor could not do anything with Dake from top other than hold on.

Neutral. Dake controled handfighting. Dake controlled distance. Dake controlled tie-ups. Dake controlled pace of match. Taylor took one or two more half-shots. Dake went in deep for a hi-c, Taylor stopped him and took a counter-shot. An excellent counter-shot that he probably would have finished on anyone else. This counter-shot resulted in a scramble where Dake maintained great position and Taylor was never close to scoring.

 

3rd period: Taylor on bottom. Taylor's escape came from Dake's wild mat return. Taylor capitalized on Dake's mistake. Great job by Taylor. (As a cornell fan, I would say this was more of a mistake on Dake's part than proof that Taylor can escape from Dake quickly.) Whether Dake can actually hold Taylor down or break him to the mat or complete a mat return was not determined.

Neutral. Dake controlled the match, pace, tie-ups, etc. - again. Taylor took two more half-shots towards the end of the third in a clear effort to get the stall call. These were not attempts to actually score. It worked - Dake was warned for stalling.

 

SV OT - Dake controlled again. Taylor's only action was a half-shot - again, with no real attempt to score.

 

2OT 1st: Taylor on bottom. Dake was able to hold Taylor down and complete a few mat returns. Taylor did not escape, and was never close to an escape.

 

2nd: Dake on bottom. Taylor could not break Dake down, could not keep him on the mat, and Dake escaped - this time in less than thirty seconds. Taylor then took a deep shot - but without any real set up. More of a last-ditch effort to make something happen than a real, calculated, Tayloresque shot. He also took a few more half shots.

 

 

So - to sum it up, Taylor took about 8-10 half shots throughout the match - but his only "real" shot came as a counter-shot to Dake's. Dake controlled every aspect of the match. I guess my earlier comment that "Taylor never had a shot" was wrong because Taylor is, after all, David Taylor. But I completely disagree with you that the two are "razor-thin" and that it is a "toss up".

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flaBigRedfan,

 

I don't really know what else to say my friend. You have already admitted your bias, and then you analyze the match knowing full well the bias is there and using it fully and unapologetically in your analysis. Example: In period 2 Taylor rides Dake - but you say he never really attempted to turn him all he was doing was riding, therefore him riding Dake means nothing. In period 3 Dake could not at all ride Taylor - but you then say it was only because of Dake's mistake that Taylor escaped, and it does not prove that Taylor can escape Dake's ride quickly, so this also means nothing. (Somehow though, coming from the same person, a double OT rideout victory is more than enough "proof" that this match was dominated and not at all close???) I think you need to try a bit harder to but your bias to the side and actually analyze what happened instead of molding it to fit the dominating performance you were hoping for....

 

Edit* This is the perfect shining example of your unbelieveable bias in how you see this match. You said: "Dake went in deep for a hi-c, Taylor stopped him and took a counter-shot. An excellent counter-shot that he probably would have finished on anyone else. This counter-shot resulted in a scramble where Dake maintained great position and Taylor was never close to scoring."

Dake went in deep for a hi-c, huh? Of Taylor and his shot attempts, you dismiss them all (including the counter-shot discussed here) as not real attempts at scoring, and never being close. Yet you have the guts to say that "Dake went in deep for a hi-c", ha! The exchange in question is here (

), starting at 6:32. Not only did Dake not get in deep, he failed to penetrate at all. All he did was change his level and reach for Taylor's leg (which he did not even touch, let alone get in deep. I mean he literally did not even touch Taylor's leg with this "Deep hi-c"), and Taylor knocked him off balance and took the single leg. Like I said, this is the perfect example of your insane bias in analyzing what happened in this match.

 

Like I said, your opinion (that Dake will win every single future match, etc) is fine and valid. But you have no ground to stand on when you say that 1) the all-star match was not "razor thin" / that Dake dominated and was never in danger of losing and 2) that a future match is not a "toss-up".

 

Maybe it is in the way you define these words/phrases, I don't know. But what it boils down to is simple: it is completely irrational and baseless to say that Dake is in no danger of losing a rematch to Taylor based on the all-star match...If you don't think an OT victory can be overturned in a rematch (no matter how good/unbeatable the wrestler seems to be) you should check up on your history. *Cough-Cough* Anybody remember how unbeatable Brent Metcalf was the year he lost to Caldwell (after beating him a bit worse than an OT rideout victory that same year in the All-Star)

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PA fan, now you're putting words in my mouth - I never said that Taylor's riding Dake meant nothing.

And I never said the match wasn't close. I said it wasn't a toss up, and that Dake was the better wrestler and that Dake would win when they meet again. Until Taylor shows me more against Dake, I can't see it any differently. But - Taylor is a great wrestler, and he definitely could beat Dake. Just because Dake is the better wrestler, doesn't mean he can't lose to another outstanding wrestler. I'm just saying he shouldn't. Dake is better, and I have to give the edge to the better wrestler - the one that I believe should win. I don't believe they are equal, and I don't believe its a toss up.

 

Also, I know that anything can happen. Bubba proved it. Larry Owings proved it. Marianetti proved it when he beat McIlravy. Caldwell proved it when he beat Metcalf. Hell, Blubaugh proved it when he pinned Habibi in the '60 Olympics. Every year there are upsets - this is what makes our sport so exciting. Upsets are exciting - unless it's your guy - then they are actually are upsetting.

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PA fan, now you're putting words in my mouth - I never said that Taylor's riding Dake meant nothing.

And I never said the match wasn't close. I said it wasn't a toss up, and that Dake was the better wrestler and that Dake would win when they meet again. Until Taylor shows me more against Dake, I can't see it any differently. But - Taylor is a great wrestler, and he definitely could beat Dake. Just because Dake is the better wrestler, doesn't mean he can't lose to another outstanding wrestler. I'm just saying he shouldn't. Dake is better, and I have to give the edge to the better wrestler - the one that I believe should win. I don't believe they are equal, and I don't believe its a toss up.

 

Also, I know that anything can happen. Bubba proved it. Larry Owings proved it. Marianetti proved it when he beat McIlravy. Caldwell proved it when he beat Metcalf. Hell, Blubaugh proved it when he pinned Habibi in the '60 Olympics. Every year there are upsets - this is what makes our sport so exciting. Upsets are exciting - unless it's your guy - then they are actually are upsetting.

 

Again, everything you are saying on an opinion basis is valid. But there is just nothing to back up statements like you "don't believe they are equal", when it comes to folkstyle that is (you could certainly argue, and id even agree, that Dake is a step ahead at freestyle right now). I mean think about it, when you compare two wrestlers withing the same weight class, all you can go on is their head to head. No two wrestlers (if they are in the same weight) can be exactly tied(at least not over the short term).

 

You can say that Dake is the better folkstyler right now as well, and I am willing to grant that, for now, given that he is 1-0 head to head. But to say that they are not equal and that future match-ups are not toss-ups/Taylor beating Dake would be an upset - I just can't buy that based on what is observable.

 

If Taylor vs. Dake is not a toss-up...I'd love to know what match (specifically re match) is one? Again - 1 folkstyle match that was decided by rideouts is about as much of a toss-up and as close a match as this sport has to offer. So if Taylor vs. Dake 2 is not a toss-up .... then a toss-up does not exist.

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