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Angry_Fish

Kyle Dake not Happy

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As for the wild card....who cares?  It's the world team trials and you don't "earn" a wildcard.  You earn entry at one the qualifiers, and then a wildcard is exactly that..a "wildcard."  

 

The wrestlers busting their ass day in day out to try to make a world team care. And obviously, some fans care too or this thread wouldn't have been created.

 

Anyway, the problem is not about the wildcard criteria specifically. The way it was handled is representative of the way the sport is handled by USA Wrestling. Brandon Slay's comment on Twitter is a prime example of the "insider" attitude prevalent in our sport's governing body.

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I think the bye is appropriate.  The number one concern of the World Team Trials should be putting the best world team together.  You should never sacrifice that goal to make the US open more interesting.  

 

But I would love a more important US open.  Try putting more time between the events so there is less fatigue/peaking/injury concerns.  Try attaching some of the prize money associated with world medals/world team membership with being US Open champ.  Determine world cup participation and funded overseas trips by the us open.  Get creative.

 

But don't base the trials format on anything other than what puts the best World Team on the mat.

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If the bye must stay, yes there should be more time betweeen the US Open and WTTs --- 10 weeks instead of 5.  And the best of 3 should not be same day as the mini-tourney -- either the next day or a month or so later (really this should happen no mater what).

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I agree the goal of the trials should be to put the best world team together, but not necessarily on a year-by-year basis. I think the goal of the trials ought to be to put USA wrestling in a position to win as many medals as possible year in and year out. To take the long view might lead to different policies and procedures. It should also insure the the process is as free of politics and BS as possible. In general the approach should foster every athlete to work hard and compete because they feel they have a shot of representing the US.

 

For this reason I don't like the bye to the finals. I don't see it as a motivator. We've seen many "one and done" (or close enough) over the years, so it's not like the bye to the finals is obviously keeping people in the game longer. And guys like JB say they are wrestling for the glory and the record books. I love it. I don't think he needs the bye to the finals to keep wrestling. Meanwhile, the deck gets stacked in his favor. He gets to skip not only the US Open but also the mini-tournament wrestling fewer matches, giving US opponents less of a chance to catch up and more of a chance to wear themselves down or get injured. For someone right on the cusp that could be enough to send them packing.

 

So I like Angry_Fish's suggestion of giving the reigning champ some kind of edge. This could help even out the "everyone is gunning for me" problem of being the guy on top. That being said, can anyone say exactly what the Russian team does. I mean they have their nationals and no one seemed to be getting a bye, but on the other hand, I never got the sense that being their national champ was a done deal for making the world team.

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The process seems pretty fair to me.

 

The US Open is a straightforward tournament, and if you want to be a national champion, go there and see if you're the best in the country.  

 

The WTTs is a slightly different beast. The WTTs is a process for determining the best representative at worlds. The best representative is not necessarily the person who can most effectively scout the one or two other top people in his weight class. The best representative will be the person who is most able to go through a bracket with tons of tough wrestlers in it. There is no better way of determining than looking at success at the most recent worlds. 

 

As it happens, USA Wrestling picks a world team member using either performance the most recent worlds (the best way to gauge how you can handle the upcoming worlds), or success at the most recent US Open (a straightforward national tournament). You automatically go to the WTTs best-of-three finals if you either (1) win a medal at the 2014 worlds (less than nine months ago) -- or if there is no medalist -- (2) win the 2015 US Open. That criteria applies to everybody.

 

Why Dake is complaining on social media is beyond me. Has he even competed in a US Open?

Edited by Katie

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The process seems pretty fair to me.

 

The US Open is a straightforward tournament, and if you want to be a national champion, go there and see if you're the best in the country.  

 

The WTTs is a slightly different beast. The WTTs is a process for determining the best representative at worlds. The best representative is not necessarily the person who can best scout the one or two other top people in his weight class. The best representative will be the person who can best go through a bracket with tons of tough wrestlers in it. The very best way to determine that is success at the most recent worlds. 

 

As it happens, USA Wrestling picks a world team member using either performance the most recent worlds (the best way to gauge how you can handle the upcoming worlds), or success at the most recent US Open (a straightforward national tournament). You automatically go to the WTTs best-of-three finals if you either (1) win a medal at the 2014 worlds (less than nine months ago) , or if there is no medalist (2) win the 2015 US Open. That criteria applies to everybody.

 

Why Dake is complaining on social media is beyond me. Has he even competed in a US Open?

There is only 1 reason for complaining from him at this time, he's either got conditioning problems or he's not ready for this tounament

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The wrestlers busting their ass day in day out to try to make a world team care. And obviously, some fans care too or this thread wouldn't have been created.

 

Anyway, the problem is not about the wildcard criteria specifically. The way it was handled is representative of the way the sport is handled by USA Wrestling. Brandon Slay's comment on Twitter is a prime example of the "insider" attitude prevalent in our sport's governing body.

I get that all of these guys work hard and there are a couple homers that want to see their club guys compete...But that's why there is the US Open, which anybody can enter, and the two qualifiers, which anybody can enter.  Didn't earn a spot in the WTT through those?  Better luck next year.  I know that's harsh, but it's life in the sport of wrestling.  If you're not one of the top guys in the weight, you will not be given any favors.  The Wildcard isn't something anybody "deserves".  To quote Tom Brands, "you only deserve what you earn".  

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I get that all of these guys work hard and there are a couple homers that want to see their club guys compete...But that's why there is the US Open, which anybody can enter, and the two qualifiers, which anybody can enter.  Didn't earn a spot in the WTT through those?  Better luck next year.  I know that's harsh, but it's life in the sport of wrestling.  If you're not one of the top guys in the weight, you will not be given any favors.  The Wildcard isn't something anybody "deserves".  To quote Tom Brands, "you only deserve what you earn".  

 

No, a truly fair and meritocratic system has criteria listed for all to see and plan around. Just because you're not the top contender does not mean you didn't earn your spot. That's like saying the top 4 guys at NCAAs earned their AA spot but the 8th placer didn't. If you're going to call 8 guys AA, the path to get there should be crystal clear and based on results. Similarly, if you are going to allow X, Y or Z guys to compete at the WTT, you should post criteria that are well understood by all so every single spot can be earned. The wildcard spot is as valid a spot as the US Open winner's spot. That's why there's a tournament at the WTT. To determine which of ALL the guys who qualified will get to compete for the spot against the #1 guy.

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The bye to the WTT finals is not an advantage.  Burroughs will have lost out on battles and conditioning where his opponent will have been tested and gone through fire to get there.

 

I feel that Burroughs skipping US Open was weak, and he will go down at WTTs.

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BraunMann if JB wanted more matches he could have entered the U.S. Open and Northern Plains. I bet he could have even petitioned USA wrestling to be first seed in the mini tournament. I consider the advantage to be the option to not wrestle.

 

 

Don't take the troll bait....

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Not troll bait - Dake almost beat JB without this supposed advantage.

 

Honestly it wasn't that close between Burroughs and Dake back in 2013.

 

After Burroughs teched Dake in the first match, in the second match Drake changed his strategy to a defensive one. Dake got to overtime, but Burroughs took Dake pretty easily in overtime. Watch from 12:03 to 12:15:

 

 

Burroughs had the match under control. 

 

Dake may prove to be great in the near future, but at this point he has no significant freestyle accomplishments that I'm aware of. Lots of guys have scored on Burroughs, and lots of guys have kept it close, and Marable even beat him. But when you're looking at hardware, right now Burroughs is head and shoulders above everyone else at 74kg. 

Edited by Katie

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Aren't airline tickets non-transferrable?

Aren't airline tickets non-transferrable?

Well I haven't book tickets yet so I can put in who Evers name. Southwest getaway $59 from San Francisco to Vegas. I know that's for me so who ever if they win can pay difference

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Katie, I hear you, but that particular match went into overtime and Dake scored a three pointer in the first period and almost a four pointer which turned into a two pointer in the second off of a re-attack. It went into OT by the way in a day that Dake had a twelve minute match with Howe, a match with Taylor while JB had a bye to the finals. I can't think of a worse match to prove a point about JB over Dake. 

 

That said, if you mean you never doubted the outcome, I'm sure there are a lot of people right there with you. But to say that JB had the match under control simplifies things. There are a small number of people in the world who push JB hard enough that he has to rally. At 2:04 in the second period (9:27 on the YouTube) Dake defends JB's attack, re-attacks and scores two while in position to score three or four to lead 6-4 with a minute fifty to go. JB's uniqueness lies in his ability to win almost all of those matches. He has an extraordinary high hit rate when it comes to rallying from behind. He scores confidently at the end and therefore it takes more than a lead of a few points to beat JB. But to say that this is entirely about JB and not look at what it might say about Dake isn't right either. 

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US Open should decide the World Team. 

 

JB did not have the match in question under control, but did what it took to win.  Its likely he'll win again, but I think Dake is the one to take him down if it happens.

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Katie, I hear you, but that particular match went into overtime and Dake scored a three pointer in the first period and almost a four pointer which turned into a two pointer in the second off of a re-attack. It went into OT by the way in a day that Dake had a twelve minute match with Howe, a match with Taylor while JB had a bye to the finals. I can't think of a worse match to prove a point about JB over Dake. 

 

That said, if you mean you never doubted the outcome, I'm sure there are a lot of people right there with you. But to say that JB had the match under control simplifies things. There are a small number of people in the world who push JB hard enough that he has to rally. At 2:04 in the second period (9:27 on the YouTube) Dake defends JB's attack, re-attacks and scores two while in position to score three or four to lead 6-4 with a minute fifty to go. JB's uniqueness lies in his ability to win almost all of those matches. He has an extraordinary high hit rate when it comes to rallying from behind. He scores confidently at the end and therefore it takes more than a lead of a few points to beat JB. But to say that this is entirely about JB and not look at what it might say about Dake isn't right either. 

 

I wasn't using the 2013 OT match to prove Burroughs is better than Dake. If I wanted to do that I would list their respective freestyle accomplishments. Instead, I linked to the 2013 OT match to show that Burroughs was able to take Dake down when he needed to. To me that shows Burroughs had the match under control. 

 

Dake hit some good counters, but I doubt he can rely on winning like that in the future. Throw in Burroughs's tech over Dake that same day, and I simply don't see why anyone would think Dake is on Burroughs's level at this point. I think Marable has a better case. 

 

If Dake had won a few major international tournaments, I would think differently. But he hasn't. We have very little to go on right now. 

Edited by Katie

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aint the us open just like the us open in tennis and golf where anyone can enter it i thought there were guys from other countries in the past so this isnt the american championship

 

dake is trying to stay relevant without any accomplishments the twitter post was not about finding out the answers it was about stiring up his fans

 

team usa can put their team together however they want the wildcard is pointless to argue

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Ok Katie thanks. I enjoy thinking about all this but the proof is in the pudding as they say. JB is the man, Dake has never beat him and you are correct that he doesn't have any major freestyle accomplishments. So he's all potential that he needs to convert or he will end up being another Metcalf. I will say that at least we have guys good enough to give JB enough of a run for his money that the matches are interesting.

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