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UWW Cadet Thread

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I'm not sure how you (or anyone else) can think that a folk style match couldn't turn out different. Lee had 5 takedowns to one! Being able to dominate from neutral is a huge advantage in folk, especially when you are as good as Lee is on top because your opponent can't just wait for the ref to put you back on your feet. Then factor in that Fix scored most of his points on big freestyle moves that wouldn't of scored much, if anything in folk and it's abundantly clear in my mind that if and when they wrestle in folk, the result will most likely be different. Hopefully we get to see it at Super 32……. In the meantime, Fix has wrestled awesome over the past few weeks and deserves a lot of praise. I hope he brings home a world title (or two) in the near future. 

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Certainly possible, but similar analysis had Lee winning handily in freestyle with nearly 100% certainty. If anyone would've said Fix would win twice in a row, he would've been tarred and feathered in this forum. And then there were the actual results....

 

Fix has earned the benefit of the doubt.

 

As for folkstyle, Fix would've wrestled differently in folkstyle than he did in freestyle. We don't even know if Lee can hold Fix down anymore. Based on what I saw, the difference in strength and likely even conditioning is significant enough that I would wager Fix can get out from under Lee now, which really evens things. It makes a TD just a 1-point advantage, and Fix has shown he can put Lee on his ass and back and is therefore a potential big-move scorer in folkstyle as well.

 

I am not saying Fix will beat Lee in folkstyle. I am just saying that he has earned the benefit of the doubt and those predicting a folkstyle blowout should pause and think about how certain Lee's victory in freestyle seemed just days ago.

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Freestyle emphasizes takedowns more than Folkstyle.  Freestyle emphasizes technique more than Folkstyle.  Folkstyle emphasizes conditioning more than Freestyle.  

 

The result could absolutely be different in Folk, but it is far from a sure thing, and plenty of what happened in that match indicates Fix could win a folkstyle match.

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Certainly possible, but similar analysis had Lee winning handily in freestyle with nearly 100% certainty. If anyone would've said Fix would win twice in a row, he would've been tarred and feathered in this forum. And then there were the actual results....

 

Fix has earned the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

The corrolary to your thought process is that now Fix is on top and people here can be just as wrong predicting Fix to keep beating Lee as they just were predicting Lee would keep beating Fix. 

 

Why does this even have to be a thing? We used to have one alpha dog, now we have two. It's all good. 

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The corrolary to your thought process is that now Fix is on top and people here can be just as wrong predicting Fix to keep beating Lee as they just were predicting Lee would keep beating Fix. 

 

Why does this even have to be a thing? We used to have one alpha dog, now we have two. It's all good. 

I agree wholeheartedly with this half of your statement.  

Edited by boconnell

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When guys compete in freestyle it gives you very little indication of what would happen in folkstyle. When people say a takedown is a takedown I want to pull my hair out. It works both ways. Freestyle results have a loose correlation to folkstyle results and vice versa. You know what rules you are wrestling under and react differently according to the style you are wrestling. In freestyle it is sometimes beneficial to bail out on a takedown and not risk exposure. Everything is different in your strategy from the techniques you attack with to the way you defend. Fix scored more points in the style they were wrestling and there is no reason to believe both guys wouldn't adjust techniques in a folkstyle match-up. A couple things stood out to me in the two matches. One: I couldn't believe Lee didn't score his reversal at the end of the first match when trying to break Fix's quad pod. The other is that Lee seemed to fade in both matches. Wrestling a bigger, stronger guy makes you exert more energy and he couldn't keep that pace for the 4 minutes.

 

The other difference between freestyle and folkstyle is the weigh-in time. In folkstyle Lee and Fix would not have been in the same weight class. They weighed in 13 hours before competition started and about 38 hours before the best of three series started. Fix's optimum day before weigh-in weight is probably right at 119-120 and hour before weigh-ins 125-126. Lee seems to be about 113 the day before and 119-120 for hour before. 110 probably would not have been reasonable for Lee in August. So with the weight classes available, both guys were wrestling the one that suited them best.

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When guys compete in freestyle it gives you very little indication of what would happen in folkstyle. When people say a takedown is a takedown I want to pull my hair out. It works both ways. Freestyle results have a loose correlation to folkstyle results and vice versa. You know what rules you are wrestling under and react differently according to the style you are wrestling. In freestyle it is sometimes beneficial to bail out on a takedown and not risk exposure. Everything is different in your strategy from the techniques you attack with to the way you defend. Fix scored more points in the style they were wrestling and there is no reason to believe both guys wouldn't adjust techniques in a folkstyle match-up. A couple things stood out to me in the two matches. One: I couldn't believe Lee didn't score his reversal at the end of the first match when trying to break Fix's quad pod. The other is that Lee seemed to fade in both matches. Wrestling a bigger, stronger guy makes you exert more energy and he couldn't keep that pace for the 4 minutes.

 

The other difference between freestyle and folkstyle is the weigh-in time. In folkstyle Lee and Fix would not have been in the same weight class. They weighed in 13 hours before competition started and about 38 hours before the best of three series started. Fix's optimum day before weigh-in weight is probably right at 119-120 and hour before weigh-ins 125-126. Lee seems to be about 113 the day before and 119-120 for hour before. 110 probably would not have been reasonable for Lee in August. So with the weight classes available, both guys were wrestling the one that suited them best.

I want to clarify what you are getting at. Are you saying that for freestyle type weigh-ins fix was at his ideal weight (approx 120) and would not easily make hour before (e.g., folk) weigh-ins and would go 125? Vs you think that if there were a 113 or 115 pound weight class Lee would be perfect for that for freestyle and he chose not to pull to 110?

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BTF that is exactly what I am saying. sometimes what your optimum competition weight is, is not a weight class. 110 might have been reasonable for lee to make at the end of may, but very detrimental to his performance when he has to make it again in august.

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The corrolary to your thought process is that now Fix is on top and people here can be just as wrong predicting Fix to keep beating Lee as they just were predicting Lee would keep beating Fix.

 

Why does this even have to be a thing? We used to have one alpha dog, now we have two. It's all good.

I never predicted Fix would beat Lee. In fact I said I would bet on Lee in folk style but no longer with confidence. I did say Fix earned the benefit of the doubt because the Lee apologist sentiment was starting to irk me.

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Freestyle emphasizes takedowns more than Folkstyle.  Freestyle emphasizes technique more than Folkstyle.  Folkstyle emphasizes conditioning more than Freestyle.  

 

The result could absolutely be different in Folk, but it is far from a sure thing, and plenty of what happened in that match indicates Fix could win a folkstyle match.

The facts do not support your premise that Freestyle emphasizes takedowns.  

 

Fix scored 14 points in two matches, 2 of which were by takedown.

 

Lee had 5 takedowns to 1 yet lost both matches. 

 

If anything, I think it's safe to say that Freestyle favors big moves that involve exposure that wouldn't necessarily be scored in folk style. 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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I never predicted Fix would beat Lee. In fact I said I would bet on Lee in folk style but no longer with confidence. I did say Fix earned the benefit of the doubt because the Lee apologist sentiment was starting to irk me.

 

 

 

Don't listen to the flo podcast discussion of this match then, because they say the same exact things stated in this thread. Dang apologists!

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The facts do not support your premise that Freestyle emphasizes takedowns.  

 

Fix scored 14 points in two matches, 2 of which were by takedown.

 

Lee had 5 takedowns to 1 yet lost both matches. 

 

If anything, I think it's safe to say that Freestyle favors big moves that involve exposure that wouldn't necessarily be scored in folk style. 

You are correct.  This one best 2 out of 3 had those TD stats so it is clear that Freestyle is not about takedowns any more and Folkstyle is now the style that values takedowns most.  

 

Let me just ask you a simple either/or question.  What style emphasizes takedowns more, folk or free?

Edited by boconnell

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The facts do not support your premise that Freestyle emphasizes takedowns.  

 

Fix scored 14 points in two matches, 2 of which were by takedown.

 

Lee had 5 takedowns to 1 yet lost both matches. 

 

If anything, I think it's safe to say that Freestyle favors big moves that involve exposure that wouldn't necessarily be scored in folk style. 

 

I think these 2 matches are the exception rather than the rule. I still think Freestyle emphasizes takedowns.

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I think that there is a common misconception that takedowns are the most important aspect of freestyle, but I suspect more points are being scored from exposure on average. I'd guess both Fix and Lee scored more points from exposure then takedowns in this tournament (Fix for sure) but I'll leave it up to someone who has the time to do the calculations. 

 

That being said, this discussion was focused on these two matches and what we could potentially take away from it in evaluating a potential folk style match between the two. In that regard, my point still stands rather strongly, don't you think? 

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Don't listen to the flo podcast discussion of this match then, because they say the same exact things stated in this thread. Dang apologists!

I won't and couldn't care less what they say. Why is that even relevant? They're entitled to their opinion too.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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I think I missed your answer?  I mean, it's not like you're compelled to answer my question on my terms, but I still missed it.

 

Takedowns are far more important in Freestyle than Folkstyle.  Obviously getting taken down to your back and turned a few times cancels out the TD advantage.  Obviously freestyle has strange tie breaker rules that allowed Fix to win match 1 without outscoring him.  There are lots of factors that determine how folk and free relate to each other.

 

I have not seen 1 person take Fix's two match sweep and declare he'd win in Folkstyle.  That is evidence of the incredibly high regard Lee is held in.  But strangely I have seen many people take Lee's two straight losses and use it as proof he would win a folkstyle match.

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Takedowns are worth the same in both styles yet there is a lot more scoring in freestyle. Why, because it's easier to score with exposure points and push outs. Therefore, you cannot logically conclude that takedowns are far more important in freestyle as you state. On the contrary, takedowns are much more important in folk where it's harder to score by other means and it's possible to ride you opponent for entire periods. There are a ton of matches in college wrestling where one single takedown wins the match. Not so much in freestyle. Therefore my answer is that takedowns are far more important in folk style. As such, since Lee dominated the takedown battle, I would favor him in a folk style match. 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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Thanks for the answer.  I would disagree and I think the vast majority of people would.

In freestyle you score 2 for a TD and never give up an escape.  That makes a TD a 2-0 advantage.  In folkstyle you score 2 for a TD but rarely hold the guy down, so it is usually a 2-1 advantage.  That is what makes short time takedowns so valuable in college wrestling.  

 

Additionally, you spend far more time on your feet in Freestyle, so you have far more chances to score takedowns.  Every restart in Freestyle is in neutral.  Probably half of folkstyle matches are wrestled on the mat.  

 

But I think Cadet level freestyle matches are different than senior level stuff.  In seniors the scores are lower, the exposures are fewer, there is way less par terre scoring, and because of that it is possible Takedowns are deemphasized on the lower ages.

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I won't and couldn't care less what they say. Why is that even relevant? They're entitled to their opinion too.

 

 

 

Of course they are entitled to their opinion, as are posters here emntitled to theirs. They seem to all agree on the implications of the results of this match, but you seem upset with what they are saying. Maybe you shouldn't be upset. I say this with all due respect. 

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