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Glane18

Jordan Oliver going MMA

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Surprised this hasn't been on here yet, but a few days ago JO tweeted that he's going MMA after he wins his gold medal (I think he said after 2016).  Benson Henderson immediately was on there recruiting JO to his gym.  Very interesting.  Especially concerning the ASU situation and being a coach there for the recruits.  

 

Honestly, I know he will find a lot of success in MMA because wrestlers transfer so well, but I just don't see the killer instinct in him for MMA.  Who knows?  Maybe he's bored with wrestling and needs something new?  

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You can never be 100% sure about any prospect, but Oliver's as good a bet as any wrestler can be. Very strong and quick, fluid movement, elite wrestling. proven to be tough and hardworking.

 

The only question mark is what kind of very tough fighter he will become. On the one end you have Askren who is always looking for ways to take the fight to the ground and keep it there. On the other end you have Romero who picked up striking very well, and who uses his wrestling to keep the fight standing. 

 

I bet Bellator will sign him. They seem to pick up a lot of wrestling's blue chippers. 

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Surprised this hasn't been on here yet, but a few days ago JO tweeted that he's going MMA after he wins his gold medal (I think he said after 2016).  Benson Henderson immediately was on there recruiting JO to his gym.  Very interesting.  Especially concerning the ASU situation and being a coach there for the recruits.  

 

Honestly, I know he will find a lot of success in MMA because wrestlers transfer so well, but I just don't see the killer instinct in him for MMA.  Who knows?  Maybe he's bored with wrestling and needs something new?  

 

 

 

Killer instinct is about the least quality you need in MMA.   The spectacle has shifted from fighting to a cardio game of tactics, positioning, and outsciring your opponent.   You need ZERO killer instinct to be successful in MMA.   Look at GSP.   The quintessential blanket, absolutely unwilling to take any chance at all in order to finish his opponent, yet reigned for years in his weight class as King.   

 

Look at Cane - a hard working cardio machine who pushes a pace until the opponent can go no longer.   Not a killer by any standard, more of an octopus who slowly rinds one out until the drown.   

 

Cormier is very similar.   Good technique, powerful, decent chin, stays in good position and slowly grinds you out.   

 

Weidman seems to bring it pretty good and actually gets into fist fights out there, but again, it's not like he's a Tank Abbott trying to take your head off.   He could show up with out any intent to hurt, run through the motions, and win his fights.  

 

Hendricks, no killer instinct.   Heavy hands but watch his fights versus Lawler and GSP.   Hurts them and then takes them down instead of finishing.   

 

Oliver could enter right into MMA, and win via technique and athleticism.   What difference would the killer instinct make?   

 

The game has changed from fighting to outscoring.   No killer instinct needed, in fact it serves the athlete better to not have the killer instinct and preserve his gas, and coast to positional victory.   

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I agree with Cletus. A killer instinct is not a requirement to be the best. It can help you if you use it right, but if you let it get in the way, it could hurt you, too. Here are two excellent Jack Slack articles. This recent article looks at how Weidman fights, and calls him the need breed of fighter:

 

http://fightland.vice.com/blog/jack-slack-why-chris-weidman-is-the-new-breed-of-martial-artist

 

This 2014 article shows how Cormier uses wrestling to out-position and out=strike his opponents:

 

http://fightland.vice.com/blog/jack-slack-daniel-cormier-does-wrestling-right

 

Neither of these articles suggest a killer instinct is necessary at the highest levels of today's MMA. 

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Killer instinct is about the least quality you need in MMA.   The spectacle has shifted from fighting to a cardio game of tactics, positioning, and outsciring your opponent.   You need ZERO killer instinct to be successful in MMA.   Look at GSP.   The quintessential blanket, absolutely unwilling to take any chance at all in order to finish his opponent, yet reigned for years in his weight class as King.   

 

Look at Cane - a hard working cardio machine who pushes a pace until the opponent can go no longer.   Not a killer by any standard, more of an octopus who slowly rinds one out until the drown.   

 

Cormier is very similar.   Good technique, powerful, decent chin, stays in good position and slowly grinds you out.   

 

Weidman seems to bring it pretty good and actually gets into fist fights out there, but again, it's not like he's a Tank Abbott trying to take your head off.   He could show up with out any intent to hurt, run through the motions, and win his fights.  

 

Hendricks, no killer instinct.   Heavy hands but watch his fights versus Lawler and GSP.   Hurts them and then takes them down instead of finishing.   

 

Oliver could enter right into MMA, and win via technique and athleticism.   What difference would the killer instinct make?   

 

The game has changed from fighting to outscoring.   No killer instinct needed, in fact it serves the athlete better to not have the killer instinct and preserve his gas, and coast to positional victory.   

Cletus, I will admit that I agree with you on some of your main points, but when you say that "you need ZERO killer instinct to be successful in MMA" that is flat out wrong.  Sorry.  

 

You say GSP, When he was up and coming, he had a killer instinct.  He was nasty.  Once he got that belt he switched his tactics to winning on points. He no longer needed that killer instinct or to make a name for himself.  He won on skills, tactics, conditioning, control, etc.  Someone had to come and take that belt from him, and they couldn't... But someone else who was hungry did.  Like Johnny Hendricks.  Everybody knows that Johnny won that fight (Even Dana).  

 

Did you see the fight when Johnny Hendricks lost his belt to Lawler?  The last 5 seconds of the fight JH was walking away shaking his head with Lawler stocking him and hitting him and calling him out.  Lawler had a killer instinct that fight.  

 

The list goes on.  What about Jon Jones, who's probably the best pound for pound (even though not fighting anymore because he's a pos)  That dude is nasty.  Look at his submission over Machida.  

 

Why do you think Askren can't get signed to the UFC?  He's a 2x NCAA champ olympian who's undefeated in MMA and holds titles in Bellator and One FC and they still won't sign him.  It's not because he talks trash about Dana.  

 

I could go on but I think you get my point.  JO needs to make a name for himself and I agree that he definitely has the tools to be a top guy in MMA.  I root for wrestlers just about every time they are in MMA, and that will be no different for JO.  I hope he can be a UFC champ.  Serious.  

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Cletus, I will admit that I agree with you on some of your main points, but when you say that "you need ZERO killer instinct to be successful in MMA" that is flat out wrong.  Sorry.  

 

 

 

No need to apologize Glane18, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how silly or misinformed it may be,   

 

 

 

You say GSP, When he was up and coming, he had a killer instinct.  He was nasty.  Once he got that belt he switched his tactics to winning on points. He no longer needed that killer instinct or to make a name for himself.  He won on skills, tactics, conditioning, control, etc.  Someone had to come and take that belt from him, and they couldn't... But someone else who was hungry did.  Like Johnny Hendricks.  Everybody knows that Johnny won that fight (Even Dana).  

 

 

Johnny did thrash GSP around and at least earned a draw in my mind, but your example proves my point.   Hendricks not only did not bring the killer instinct, he coasted in round 5 and allowed GSP to make a case for a narrow victory.   Johnny absolutely did not show killer instinct in the fight.   Was he hungry?  Sure he was.   But we aren't discussing hunger, this is about killer instinct not being a factor needed in MMA

 

 

 

 

Did you see the fight when Johnny Hendricks lost his belt to Lawler?  The last 5 seconds of the fight JH was walking away shaking his head with Lawler stocking him and hitting him and calling him out.  Lawler had a killer instinct that fight.  

 

I saw it.  I thought Hendricks won 3 rounds to 2 despite not having the killer instinct. 

 

 

The list goes on.  What about Jon Jones, who's probably the best pound for pound (even though not fighting anymore because he's a pos)  That dude is nasty.  Look at his submission over Machida.  

 

 

The list goes on and on?  I've refuted the 2 on your list.

 

Jon Jones fights from way outside, uses a tremendous reach advantage and kicks the opponents knee in order to wear them out, prior to finally engaging and moving in for the finish.   He may be the most tactical of them all.  So he choked Machida out, it wasn't because of a killer instinct, it was because he stopped his oxygen.    Killer instinct is a Shogun Rua, a Tank Abbott, a Don Fry, a Fedor, etc.   Guys who went in there to take your head off and didn't turtle up when they got punched in the face.   That's killer instinct.  You are confusing being a better fighter and stopping the other guy because they achieved a dominant position where they were able to overwhelm the other.   

 

 

Why do you think Askren can't get signed to the UFC?  He's a 2x NCAA champ olympian who's undefeated in MMA and holds titles in Bellator and One FC and they still won't sign him.  It's not because he talks trash about Dana.  

 

 

I think it's because despite his string of finishes, his style of positional advantage and pitter patter strikes after the fact, are not what the UFC is looking for.   They want WWE type guys out there making complete idiots of themselves and pretending to get into fist fights every single weigh in.   Heck, the girls are abysmal.   Most couldn't squash a grape, yet they are being held back as if they were pit bulls about to fight, all 115 pounds of them.   Askren is not in there because he isn't willing to be a phony and a fake.    The minute he sells out and starts cutting WWE promos and threatening to murder his opponent or wishing suicide on them, he will become an interesting prospect.    Do not confuse the UFC with a legitimate sport, it's prize fighting and it's a dirty corrupt sport.   Askren should actually take the compliment that he does not fit in.   

 

 

I could go on but I think you get my point.  JO needs to make a name for himself and I agree that he definitely has the tools to be a top guy in MMA.  I root for wrestlers just about every time they are in MMA, and that will be no different for JO.  I hope he can be a UFC champ.  Serious.  

 

 

Please do, thus far your examples are way off.   Lets hear a few more of these guys with the killer instinct.   The fact is you don't need that in this day and age where the cage is so big, the scoring favors stalling, and the match making is about as good as the women fighters are.      Look at Henry, just got into MMA and is about to challenge for the world title.   The depth of the sport is extremely thin, and MMA is MUCH easier than wrestling at the highest levels, to reach the pinnacle.    You simply do not need killer instinct, it's not a real fight almost all of the time.    

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The allure of MMA is too much. Who wants to wrestle in some arena in Uzbekistan or whatever over the bright lights of the UFC? You'd have to just have an insane passion for wrestling over everything else. Or be one of those super talented guys who can bring home medals every time. Seems like half of team USA is leaving for MMA. Interesting thing is that both Bellator and the UFC have shown that they are willing to sign wrestlers who are 0-0 but have had big accomplishments in wrestling. This can only increase the number of wrestlers crossing over as now a lot of them won't even have to fight on smaller shows. Bellator's standards seem to be lower, they will sign NCAA champs and world team members right off the bat. UFC seems to be going for guys with Olympic medals like Bilyal Makhov. Henry Cejudo debuted in 2013 and had to work his way up before being signed by the UFC, if he'd gone into MMA now I bet he'd have had offers from both the UFC and Bellator before he even had his first pro fight. The landscape has totally changed, they are willing to sign guys earlier than ever before. 

Edited by Shiraz123

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Id say Weidman has quite the killer instinct. He's out for blood every time and he finishes his opponents pretty brutally. Velasquez was finishing almost everyone too. I'll agree that you don't have to be a finishing machine to be a good mma fighter though.

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Ruth and Oliver, along with Taylor, are my favorite FS wrestlers right now. From one perspective, I am thrilled that JO and Ed are going to pursue MMA.  B/c, as a fan, this will allow me to continue to follow them -- likely to a greater degree than wrestling would allow.  I also totally understand why they would make this choice from a financial perspective.

 

But there is one thing about the way this is playing out that concerns me (a little).  I don't understand why these two would make this decision now.  Seems like a decision to make after Rio (or at least after Olypmpic Trials).  Announcing now makes me question if their heads and hearts are totally committed to wrestling in '15 and '16.  I'm proably wrong on this but it crossed my mind.

 

I also hope that they choose high quality people to surround themselves in the MMA world.  I know very little about the sport (but looks like I will be learning) but from what I glean from headlines, it sounds like there are some shady characters in that world.  I'm sure there are good guys too.  Let's hope Ed and JO choose wiseley.

Edited by Angry_Fish

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The allure of MMA is too much. Who wants to wrestle in some arena in Uzbekistan or whatever over the bright lights of the UFC? You'd have to just have an insane passion for wrestling over everything else. Or be one of those super talented guys who can bring home medals every time. Seems like half of team USA is leaving for MMA. Interesting thing is that both Bellator and the UFC have shown that they are willing to sign wrestlers who are 0-0 but have had big accomplishments in wrestling. This can only increase the number of wrestlers crossing over as now a lot of them won't even have to fight on smaller shows. Bellator's standards seem to be lower, they will sign NCAA champs and world team members right off the bat. UFC seems to be going for guys with Olympic medals like Bilyal Makhov. Henry Cejudo debuted in 2013 and had to work his way up before being signed by the UFC, if he'd gone into MMA now I bet he'd have had offers from both the UFC and Bellator before he even had his first pro fight. The landscape has totally changed, they are willing to sign guys earlier than ever before.

Very true... And you have to wonder if Zeke Jones has an angle to have crossover guys Ruth and JO involved with ASU... I wonder if it can help recruiting?? Or is it just coincidence? Or is it just that there's a lot of good mma training out there and that's where they gravitated towards? Regardless, mma is a major drain to our freestyle depth. Edited by Buckxell

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How do I know something subjective? Is that a serious question? Of course it's my opinion. Ruth is clearly not wrestling to his potential. It's not just sloppiness. He was actually out of peak shape for the first time I've ever seen against Herbert. He has been spending some time training MMA. Even if it's not a significant amount of time, how many World team members are training in another martial art?

 

As for JO, ask John Smith or anyone close to him about his training habits. If he lived and trained like Metcalf he'd be our #1 guy. He is so talented but his head is not 100% in it. That's not that controversial a statement if you know people who are around him a lot. He works very hard, but not year-round.

 

People who are on vision quests don't talk about how much they're looking forward to doing something else afterwards.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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I have no inside info on these guys but I'll take your word for it.

 

I do find it annoying when guys just assume they will win a gold medal and then go into fighting. Especially when, like Ruth Oliver and Pico they have never come close to a sr world medal.

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What I don't get is if they really are going to win a gold medal, they could have a better career in wrestling than in MMA. Financially, MMA is better than wrestling most of the time but if you win an Olympic gold medal, your best bet for a lucrative and long career in sport is with wrestling, not MMA where you'll be a rookie again.

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I have no inside info on these guys but I'll take your word for it.

 

I do find it annoying when guys just assume they will win a gold medal and then go into fighting. Especially when, like Ruth Oliver and Pico they have never come close to a sr world medal.

 

What do you want them to say? "I'll toil in obscurity until 2016. Then when I don't make the Olympic team, I'll switch over to MMA."

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It seems to be the thing to say, maybe to promote yourself to a wrestling ignorant mma market.

 

You are right though Burroughs and Varner se pretty well set up financially. Cejudo did well also and seems to be fighting for the fun or challenge of it, not $.

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