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Weird tweet from Burroughs

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From my point of view, JB gets more respect from other countries than his own. They think he is phenomenal (which he is).  That has been what I have seen over the years anyways. 

 

I understand that there is a lot of domestic rivalry due to the very popular NCAA, so I am not surprised.

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From my point of view, JB gets more respect from other countries than his own. They think he is phenomenal (which he is).  That has been what I have seen over the years anyways. 

 

I understand that there is a lot of domestic rivalry due to the very popular NCAA, so I am not surprised.

Dake at Taylor were stars all through college and built a rivalry throughout it. Though having an impressive senior year, Burroughs was basically a surprise when he took the world by storm.

 

I am really surprised at the fan following Dake and Taylor have retained at the senior level. I wonder if it has more to do with the college fan bases. Nebraska doesn't seem to have as large of a base.

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Dake at Taylor were stars all through college and built a rivalry throughout it. Though having an impressive senior year, Burroughs was basically a surprise when he took the world by storm.

 

I am really surprised at the fan following Dake and Taylor have retained at the senior level. I wonder if it has more to do with the college fan bases. Nebraska doesn't seem to have as large of a base.

JB won titles his last two years (undefeated?), and had the injury in between junior/senior year.  I thought by his senior year he was viewed as likely the best wrestler in college, no?

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Maybe US fans are just more interested in the NCAAs. They saw Dake and Taylor on ESPN in the finals four years running. There has been no reason for US fans to embrace freestyle wrestling. And style-wise I find it very frustrating. Freestyle wrestling came thisclose to being thrown out of the Olympics. It became almost as unwatchable as Olympic boxing. I think the rule changes are a major step in the right direction, but I still find myself feeling short changed by these matches.

 

For what it is worth, they need to continue tweaking the product. Create clear rules regarding exposure. Did anyone feel satisfied with the 4 points rewarded to Burroughs in the first match where he had no control, did not initiate the move and Dake had no back exposure? Love folkstyle or hate it, but you didn't need three judges subjectively interpreting everything and back points are back points. The same with the leg lace. If the back is exposed, fine, but if not there should not be points. When the viewer feels that the match was decided on the mat and not in the rule book or by the discretion of the officials, that will be progress.

 

Also, dump the WTT format. I get that at the WCs you have to wrestle a series of hard matches, but one guy isn't resting all day waiting for you in the finals.    

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I agree with Straggler about the freestyle matches vs folk.  To me there is no comparison but it is, what it is.  Regarding Burroughs tweets, I have no issue with them.  Burroughs is a class act and always has been.  When he competes, he never tries to show his opponents up(unlike a few other guys at 74kg).  All he does is win.  He is a great representative for the sport and if he does get frustrated, at times, I think the reason is because there are many more wrestling fans who follow collegiate than those who follow International.

 

 I mean it is so difficult even to follow the freestyle when the matches will be wrestled when they are shown(Flo).  When the NCAA's are wrestled, you know the schedule, there are upcoming bouts displayed and much easier to watch the matches that you want to see.

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Maybe US fans are just more interested in the NCAAs. They saw Dake and Taylor on ESPN in the finals four years running. There has been no reason for US fans to embrace freestyle wrestling. And style-wise I find it very frustrating. Freestyle wrestling came thisclose to being thrown out of the Olympics. It became almost as unwatchable as Olympic boxing. I think the rule changes are a major step in the right direction, but I still find myself feeling short changed by these matches.

 

For what it is worth, they need to continue tweaking the product. Create clear rules regarding exposure. Did anyone feel satisfied with the 4 points rewarded to Burroughs in the first match where he had no control, did not initiate the move and Dake had no back exposure? Love folkstyle or hate it, but you didn't need three judges subjectively interpreting everything and back points are back points. The same with the leg lace. If the back is exposed, fine, but if not there should not be points. When the viewer feels that the match was decided on the mat and not in the rule book or by the discretion of the officials, that will be progress.

 

Also, dump the WTT format. I get that at the WCs you have to wrestle a series of hard matches, but one guy isn't resting all day waiting for you in the finals.    

You know there are issues with reffing in folkstyle too, right? See the Oliver vs. Stieber controversy or the Ian Miller craziness as a recent examples. 

 

To say you don't understand the rules is about as idiotic as it comes. Try explaining the caution for not putting your hand on the belly button or not putting your foot on the line in folkstyle...wait what about locking hands and how you can't do it when a guy has one knee down. Don't ever say that folkstyle rules are "easy to understand." 

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You know there are issues with reffing in folkstyle too, right? See the Oliver vs. Stieber controversy or the Ian Miller craziness as a recent examples. 

 

To say you don't understand the rules is about as idiotic as it comes. Try explaining the caution for not putting your hand on the belly button or not putting your foot on the line in folkstyle...wait what about locking hands and how you can't do it when a guy has one knee down. Don't ever say that folkstyle rules are "easy to understand." 

In any sport there are going to be close calls and controversies. But in folkstyle the rules themselves seem pretty sound,although the variable way stalling is enforced drives me nuts. For example in their Southern Scuffle match was it an escape at the end or not? Close call, but the rule makes sense. My issue with freestyle is that the rules themselves are a problem, not just how they are applied. For example I think the back exposure rules need to be fixed.  

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In any sport there are going to be close calls and controversies. But in folkstyle the rules themselves seem pretty sound,although the variable way stalling is enforced drives me nuts. For example in their Southern Scuffle match was it an escape at the end or not? Close call, but the rule makes sense. My issue with freestyle is that the rules themselves are a problem, not just how they are applied. For example I think the back exposure rules need to be fixed.  

I won't even get into stalling, but there are plenty of quirky judgement calls like cautions for a multitude of silly things when you line up properly. Or things like what is considered a takedown when in a scramble where nearfall could be counted? 

 

The back exposure rules are pretty simple in freestyle, break 90 and you get points. You really have four ways to score points in freestyle, takedown(2 or 4), exposure, pushout, and penalty. In folkstyle you have takedown, nearfall, escape, reversal, along with a crazy amount of penalties from cautions to locking hands to illegal moves.

 

The reason folkstyle rules are "easy" for you to understand is 1. you don't take the time to learn the freestyle rules and 2. you see folkstyle more, thus you are more accustomed to it.

 

And before you talk about rule changes, you just need to look at the new NCAA rules and tell me a common fan won't be confused.

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I won't even get into stalling, but there are plenty of quirky judgement calls like cautions for a multitude of silly things when you line up properly. Or things like what is considered a takedown when in a scramble where nearfall could be counted? 

 

The back exposure rules are pretty simple in freestyle, break 90 and you get points. You really have four ways to score points in freestyle, takedown(2 or 4), exposure, pushout, and penalty. In folkstyle you have takedown, nearfall, escape, reversal, along with a crazy amount of penalties from cautions to locking hands to illegal moves.

 

The reason folkstyle rules are "easy" for you to understand is 1. you don't take the time to learn the freestyle rules and 2. you see folkstyle more, thus you are more accustomed to it.

 

And before you talk about rule changes, you just need to look at the new NCAA rules and tell me a common fan won't be confused.

You are certainly free to argue that folkstyle rules need changing as well. But it is missing or deflecting the point. Freestyle was almost thrown out of the Olympics. Hard to miss that serious changes needed to be made. 

 

What do I mean when I talk of the need for better rules? Take an example. In the first match between Dake and Burroughs this year Burroughs is driving him out of bounds. Dake then stops the momentum and attempts a throw. Burroughs tries to fight off the throw but has zero control and is not initiating the move. He is thrown. Dake is not exposed on his back at all. Burroughs has no control over what is occurring. Yet magically that became 4 points for Burroughs. How? The rule isn't logical. Misapplied or not, but folkstyle rules at least make sense. This did not. Wouldn't it make a hell of a lot more sense and be more realistic to require a greater degree of control before scoring it as an exposure? But what about folkstyle is not a response. This was a stop rule that screwed up the match. 

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You are certainly free to argue that folkstyle rules need changing as well. But it is missing or deflecting the point. Freestyle was almost thrown out of the Olympics. Hard to miss that serious changes needed to be made. 

 

What do I mean when I talk of the need for better rules? Take an example. In the first match between Dake and Burroughs this year Burroughs is driving him out of bounds. Dake then stops the momentum and attempts a throw. Burroughs tries to fight off the throw but has zero control and is not initiating the move. He is thrown. Dake is not exposed on his back at all. Burroughs has no control over what is occurring. Yet magically that became 4 points for Burroughs. How? The rule isn't logical. Misapplied or not, but folkstyle rules at least make sense. This did not. Wouldn't it make a hell of a lot more sense and be more realistic to require a greater degree of control before scoring it as an exposure? But what about folkstyle is not a response. This was a stop rule that screwed up the match. 

 

It was correctly called. After Burroughs initiated the move Dake tried to counter with a throw. But in attempting to counter Burroughs, Dake did not change Burroughs's direction. Further, as the sequence unfolded, Dake's back was exposed while Burroughs's never was. So in the end it was a counter that didn't quite work and that exposed Dake's back. The points properly went to Burroughs. 

 

The problem Dake has is he hasn't been able to take Burroughs down on his own offense. He has only been able to take Burroughs down with counters. As long as Burroughs can initiate takedowns against Dake while Dake cannot return the favor, the deck will be stacked against him. 

Edited by Katie

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It was correctly called. After Burroughs initiated the move Dake tried to counter with a throw. But in attempting to counter Burroughs, Dake did not change Burroughs's direction. Further, as the sequence unfolded, Dake's back was exposed while Burroughs's never was. So in the end it was a counter that didn't quite work and that exposed Dake's back. The points properly went to Burroughs. 

 

The problem Dake has is he hasn't been able to take Burroughs down on his own offense. He has only been able to take Burroughs down with counters. As long as Burroughs can initiate takedowns against Dake while Dake cannot return the favor, the deck will be stacked against him. 

That's the whole point. It was called correctly according to the rules. Dake's back was "exposed" only to the extent that he was in the process of throwing Burroughs who had no control whatsoever over Dake. Even Burroughs acknowledged that he benefited from a favorable call. So a wrestler gets 4 points where he did nothing to place the oponent on his back and had zero control. Exactly.  

Edited by straggler

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Any sport, particularly combat sports, are going to have scoring or judging controversies. Sports are just too dynamic and guys will always game the rules. I've done tournament grappling and the rules can be just as convoluted.

 

Btw I love a good folkstyle vs freestyle debate as much as anyone but it's a bit tiresome when it invades every thread. As Bobdole says every style has controversies. Sometimes the refs just screw up; sounds to me like that happened here. No need to condemn a whole style of wrestling because of a bad call.

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Sometimes the refs just screw up; sounds to me like that happened here. No need to condemn a whole style of wrestling because of a bad call.

There will always be reffing errors, but one would think that review panels should fix that issue.  I wonder if moving the review panel offsite (outside of the arena, on an internet feed that doesn't work unless there is a challenge) would improve things.

 

I also wonder if we still need three referees if we have the review panels.  Even if the scoring is occasionally wrong, having one ref would make the current score of the match much clearer to everyone in the arena.

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I don't know, but when I watched it live, I thought it was Dake's points at first. Then when I watched the replays over and over, looking at both wrestlers, I thought JB initiated the move and exposed Dake for a split second before Dake redirected the momentum. Correct call, and the refs reviewed it too.

 

Thought the low single was right on the whistle, and absolutely legal as well.       

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Watching that sequence finally.... Man I'd hate to make that call. My initial thought is 1 Dake for throwing JB out.... I do see why they called 4 though as JB was driving him forward, arguably "attacking". I really don't know.

 

It sucks for Dake to lose like that; however as someone else mentioned he needs to find ways to initiate his own shot. Dake is a master of playing the counter game but your still going to get scored more than 1/2 the time vs JB. Also once JB got that questionable 4 he was able to sit back and coast without any real danger.

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It sucks for Dake to lose like that; however as someone else mentioned he needs to find ways to initiate his own shot. Dake is a master of playing the counter game but your still going to get scored more than 1/2 the time vs JB. Also once JB got that questionable 4 he was able to sit back and coast without any real danger.

 

Dake was more aggressive than I've ever seen him against elite competition this time. The way he took it to Taylor really surprised me. Also, Dake did initiate his own offense against JB, he just got outpointed so quickly he didn't have enough time to sustain his little rally after going down by 8 so early.

 

My criticism of Dake would not be offensive aggression in those matches, but rather, that he needs to be 100% aware 100% of the time when wrestling a freak like JB. If you lose focus for even a fraction of a second, you could find yourself teched. There is literally no room for error against JB when he is on. And he was very on.

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Dake was more aggressive than I've ever seen him against elite competition this time. The way he took it to Taylor really surprised me. Also, Dake did initiate his own offense against JB, he just got outpointed so quickly he didn't have enough time to sustain his little rally after going down by 8 so early.

 

My criticism of Dake would not be offensive aggression in those matches, but rather, that he needs to be 100% aware 100% of the time when wrestling a freak like JB. If you lose focus for even a fraction of a second, you could find yourself teched. There is literally no room for error against JB when he is on. And he was very on.

 

You're right. I rewatched the second match from last weekend and Dake did initiate and score on a shot. But I think that's the only shot he's initiated and scored on in four matches.  I guess after going down by eight points he did not think he could afford to sit back and counter like he did in their previous two matches.

 

Here's the problem. When JB steps on the mat he will take you down. The only question is whether you can score more than him. In the two matches Dake aggressively went after Burroughs (their first match in 2013 and their second match in 2015) Dake got teched. And in the two matches Dake wrestled defensively and looked for counters (their second match in 2013 and their first match in 2015) he still lost. 

 

So my point stands. If Dake cannot get more of his own offense going, he's going to have a really difficult time beating Burroughs -- especially if we're talking the best of three.

Edited by Katie

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In the two matches Dake aggressively went after Burroughs (their first match in 2013 and their second match in 2015) Dake got teched.

When did Dake wrestle aggressively in the second 2015 match?

 

Edit: words are hard.

Edited by GranbyTroll

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When did Dake wrestle aggressively in the second 2015 match?

 

Edit: words are hard.

 

 

Watch the second match from 3:00 to 4:43. In that time span, Dake takes JB down, pushes JB out twice, and then gets taken to his back when he tries for another takedown. 

Edited by Katie

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