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Katie

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The rehydration thing is a non starter. Burroughs doesn't cut that much weight I'm sure he fully hydrated with a night before weigh in. I guess there's a chance he get hurt in the mini tournament by barring that he'd beat everybody regardless of how rested they are. Those 15 minute breaks they get between matches at worlds are brutal but everyone gets a few hours rest between the mini tournament and the finals at wtt's . Of course it makes some difference but IMO Burroughe would overcome pretty easily.

 

Like I said before I don't really care what the format is, but beforehand people were complaining about world medallists not getting an advantage.

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Dake is a fantastic wrestler. Without a doubt. Unfortunately for him at this point he's not one of the best five or so wrestlers in US history, and Burroughs is.  

 

Personally I think the best way for Dake to gain experience and significant wins is to go down to 70kg. If he does that, he could still challenge Burroughs for the 74kg spot in several years if he feels like it. 

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Of course he does. 10-15 lbs I believe. Not so much that you need more than a night to rehydrate. Of course there are advantages to his sitting out the mini tournament but hydration isn't one of them.

 

More like 15-20 from a very lean bodyweight. It is not insignificant. He would've won anyway but to say it's a non-factor is to discount how tough it is to get to the best of 3. There is only so much glycogen your body can store, especially after a hard cut. Wrestling 3-4 matches pretty much depletes a lot of whatever you can replenish between weigh-ins and start of wrestling. People who get to the best of 3 after a mini-tournament are at a physical disadvantage, there's no two ways about it. It's not an excuse, it is simply science.

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At BTS Burroughs was 176 (80 kg). That's 13 lbs for scratch weight. Maybe that's enough to decrease your glycogen levels but if were strictly talking water- hydration- you can gain it back in a few hours. I do speak from experience here cutting 80-74 several times. Splitting hairs? Maybe...

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More like 15-20 from a very lean bodyweight. It is not insignificant. He would've won anyway but to say it's a non-factor is to discount how tough it is to get to the best of 3. There is only so much glycogen your body can store, especially after a hard cut. Wrestling 3-4 matches pretty much depletes a lot of whatever you can replenish between weigh-ins and start of wrestling. People who get to the best of 3 after a mini-tournament are at a physical disadvantage, there's no two ways about it. It's not an excuse, it is simply science.

 

The easiest way to understand the bracket at worlds is thinking of it as a 32 man bracket with a bunch of pigtails on only one half of the bracket. So in order to win a medal, you will have to wrestle five or six matches (depending on your side of the bracket), each against national champions. To add to that, you only have 15 minutes or so between matches. And if you're a reigning medalist, you will no doubt have been scouted out by everyone you face, and if you make it to the finals your opponent may have had one match less than you that day. So winning a world medal is insanely difficult. Much more difficult than winning WTTs.

 

If you don't win the WTTs -- even if you have to go through the challenge tournament -- it's very unlikely you would win a medal anyway. Dake is a potential exception to that, because Burroughs is world-champ-level. But we really don't really know how Dake would do against a series of the world's best because he hasn't been to any major international tournaments. He hasn't even accepted Askren's challenge to a match. Dake is a proven folkstyle legend, but in freestyle we haven't seen much yet. 

Edited by Katie

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That may all be true, but my point was simply that whoever  wins the mini-tournament is at a distinct physical disadvantage. Nothing more. I never used that as an excuse for Dake losing. I even said JB would've won anyway based on the dominance I saw in the second match after he "warmed up" in the first.

 

A true equal test would have both guys in the same physical condition. I don't want to rehash the issue of whether the mini-tourney is fair or not, since that horse has been bludgeoned to death by now, but what I say is not an opinion, it is simply a statement of fact. Just like running the mile in track after running 3-4 qualifying heats would put you at a physical disadvantage, so does winning the mini-tournament.

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At BTS Burroughs was 176 (80 kg). That's 13 lbs for scratch weight. Maybe that's enough to decrease your glycogen levels but if were strictly talking water- hydration- you can gain it back in a few hours. I do speak from experience here cutting 80-74 several times. Splitting hairs? Maybe...

 

I use 15-20 since that is the range JB mentioned to me last year. Also, as another poster mentioned, in a recent interview, he talks about cutting weight as a sacrifice he makes. He is clearly not cutting Marable or Ramos type of weight, but it's not insignificant.

 

Glycogen and water are not necessarily correlated. Obviously, you need water to store glycogen in your muscles and liver, but you can be fully hydrated and still completely depleted of glycogen. Honestly, I don't know what feels worse, to be sucked out and dehydrated or to be "bonked", i.e. glycogen depleted, while exercising. Both feel like death.

 

Dehydration is a lot easier to recover from than depleted glycogen, since you can rehydrate about 2 pounds per hour into your muscles. So it only take 6-7 hours to rehydrate fully from a 13-lb cut.

 

However, the maximum glycogen you can store around JB's size is about 400 grams, or 1,600 calories. You can't physically replenish much more than about 0.3-0.4 grams per kilogram of bodyweight of glycogen into your muscles per hour. So for a 74kg man, that's 74 x (0.3-0.4 g) = 22.2-29.6g per hour. That's about 14-18 hours minimum. Most people will tell you that in practice, it takes a full day of sitting on your ass eating carbs to replenish fully.

 

If you assume you'll weigh in pretty close to fully depleted and have maybe 16-18 hours before the start of wrestling to replenish those depleted glycogen stores, you have a decent shot at being fully replenished. But if you ten have to wrestle a mini-tournament, you are going to start to run dry again by the time you get to the best of 3.

 

Again, I am not saying this is such a huge factor that it explains away any losses in the best of 3 for anyone, much less for Dake who got absolutely blitzkrieged in the second match. I am just saying that there definitely a significant physical disadvantage to wrestling your way into the best of 3 versus sitting on your ass watching.

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Thanks WN, that was an informative post.

 

If a Burroughs ever gets to the point where he's weighing 20 over- 84 kg- while on wrestling shape I want a super fight against some 86 kg guys, preferably Sadulaev.

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....But we really don't really know how Dake would do against a series of the world's best because he hasn't been to any major international tournaments. He hasn't even accepted Askren's challenge to a match. Dake is a proven folkstyle legend, but in freestyle we haven't seen much yet.

 

yeah, he's only beaten a 2x (now 3x) World champ, while wrestling with a broken hand to boot....not much.

 

http://www.dartfish.tv/Player.aspx?CR=p85865c79339m1726880

Edited by gromit

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yeah, he's only beaten a 2x (now 3x) World champ, while wrestling with a broken hand to boot....not much.

 

http://www.dartfish.tv/Player.aspx?CR=p85865c79339m1726880

 

He lost twice at that tournament (http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2013/November/24/Kennedy-is-third-and-Dake-fifth-at-GGP-Finals) but his hand was broken so we can read too much into it. I'd like to see a healthy Dake at a major international tournament. 

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Either Dake believes that the last however many matches were a fluke and he's actually better than JB right now, or more likely, he believes he will be able to beat him in the future. If he doesn't then that's what doesn't make sense.

Is there anyone that would agree that Dake was better in the two matches, with the exception of about 10 seconds in Match 1 and 20 seconds in Match 2?

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Is there anyone that would agree that Dake was better in the two matches, with the exception of about 10 seconds in Match 1 and 20 seconds in Match 2?

 

I'm sure there are people who agree with that.  But I counter with that fact that JB would have wrestled differently during the rest of those matches had he needed to.

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Is there anyone that would agree that Dake was better in the two matches, with the exception of about 10 seconds in Match 1 and 20 seconds in Match 2?

for sure. and i was better than all my opponents except for times when they were scoring points and pinning me. 

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I use 15-20 since that is the range JB mentioned to me last year. Also, as another poster mentioned, in a recent interview, he talks about cutting weight as a sacrifice he makes. He is clearly not cutting Marable or Ramos type of weight, but it's not insignificant.

 

Glycogen and water are not necessarily correlated. Obviously, you need water to store glycogen in your muscles and liver, but you can be fully hydrated and still completely depleted of glycogen. Honestly, I don't know what feels worse, to be sucked out and dehydrated or to be "bonked", i.e. glycogen depleted, while exercising. Both feel like death.

 

Dehydration is a lot easier to recover from than depleted glycogen, since you can rehydrate about 2 pounds per hour into your muscles. So it only take 6-7 hours to rehydrate fully from a 13-lb cut.

 

However, the maximum glycogen you can store around JB's size is about 400 grams, or 1,600 calories. You can't physically replenish much more than about 0.3-0.4 grams per kilogram of bodyweight of glycogen into your muscles per hour. So for a 74kg man, that's 74 x (0.3-0.4 g) = 22.2-29.6g per hour. That's about 14-18 hours minimum. Most people will tell you that in practice, it takes a full day of sitting on your ass eating carbs to replenish fully.

 

If you assume you'll weigh in pretty close to fully depleted and have maybe 16-18 hours before the start of wrestling to replenish those depleted glycogen stores, you have a decent shot at being fully replenished. But if you ten have to wrestle a mini-tournament, you are going to start to run dry again by the time you get to the best of 3.

 

Again, I am not saying this is such a huge factor that it explains away any losses in the best of 3 for anyone, much less for Dake who got absolutely blitzkrieged in the second match. I am just saying that there definitely a significant physical disadvantage to wrestling your way into the best of 3 versus sitting on your ass watching.

nice analytical post. Well done!

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I finally watched the WTT.  Dake is so strong and agile that he's used to taking unwise risks and not paying for it.  Burroughs took advantage of that.  I was most impressed by Burrough's match IQ.  That's why he's the champ.  He knows the score and the time left.  He doesn't take unnecessary risks.  He has great presence and a good feel for when his opponent gives him an opening.

 

I am as eager to watch Dake vs. Burroughs next year as I was this year.  After watching the footage, I think that Dake has a solid chance next year.  Barring injury, Taylor does not.  Dake is too physical for him.

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